Looking for radiator advice.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 1
From: VetteMOD
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by Tom DeWitt
I know where you are going with this...you are trying to find fault with our product and that's why I've been egnoring your posts. You already bought another radiator, now you want to justify it by pointing out something wrong with ours. You (and a few others) are jumping into each radiator thread and stiring the pot just for fun. Thanks
Since we keep having these debates lately, I thought a C3 feature sheet might help some people. I spent about three hours the other night taking photos, creating a pdf file, and setting it up on our website for download. Did anyone see this or care?
Anyway, I have nothing to hide, yes, there were two models for 77-88. These were the standard three 3 row (2" mount) and heavy duty four row (2 5/8" mount). The "D" dimension or header on our radiator is 3" and that will not work with the smaller brackets. Anyone with a three row wanting to upgrade to an aluminum radiator, mine or any other ones, will have to buy another set of brackets or modify the old ones.
The factory rubber cushions are about 3/8" thick, so you have another 3/4" under the metal brackets. A lot of guys tell me they just wrapped the top of the radiator with some 1/8 neoprene and deleted the cushions. The larger stock brackets work fine that way.
I try to make a radiator a Direct Fit, if and when it is possible but when someone wants a bigger radiator but tells me I can't make it any bigger when doing so, that's makes it really hard. It's the ten pounds in a five pound bag story. For the record, and I looked this up, we have sold over 250 of this model alone since we introduced the line in 2004. Not one person, (zero) has ever called to tell me they didn't fit. I guess they just assumed that since they ordered a bigger radiator that it was ok to send them one. All two row aluminum radiators, using 1" tubes are 2.25" thick.
So, that's it for me. I used to enjoy checking in the forum and trying to help people out with cooling issues but not any more. You guys can have it all to yourself.
Since we keep having these debates lately, I thought a C3 feature sheet might help some people. I spent about three hours the other night taking photos, creating a pdf file, and setting it up on our website for download. Did anyone see this or care?
Anyway, I have nothing to hide, yes, there were two models for 77-88. These were the standard three 3 row (2" mount) and heavy duty four row (2 5/8" mount). The "D" dimension or header on our radiator is 3" and that will not work with the smaller brackets. Anyone with a three row wanting to upgrade to an aluminum radiator, mine or any other ones, will have to buy another set of brackets or modify the old ones.
The factory rubber cushions are about 3/8" thick, so you have another 3/4" under the metal brackets. A lot of guys tell me they just wrapped the top of the radiator with some 1/8 neoprene and deleted the cushions. The larger stock brackets work fine that way.
I try to make a radiator a Direct Fit, if and when it is possible but when someone wants a bigger radiator but tells me I can't make it any bigger when doing so, that's makes it really hard. It's the ten pounds in a five pound bag story. For the record, and I looked this up, we have sold over 250 of this model alone since we introduced the line in 2004. Not one person, (zero) has ever called to tell me they didn't fit. I guess they just assumed that since they ordered a bigger radiator that it was ok to send them one. All two row aluminum radiators, using 1" tubes are 2.25" thick.
So, that's it for me. I used to enjoy checking in the forum and trying to help people out with cooling issues but not any more. You guys can have it all to yourself.
What? This guy gifted the C3 car show (to the tune od $1000, without recognition)!!!!!!!!!!!! Why do you rag on him? If you don't want to buy his product you shouldn't.
Before it starts, I have never puchased anything from Dewitts and do not know him, never met him and never talked to him.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 19,610
Likes: 778
From: Forked River NJ
I'll put in a plug for Dewitts. I have had mine in for about a month. Tonight was the first time I really put it to the test. The first fan kicked on at about 175 and the second one at about 195 where I have the PWM sensor set. It cooled it down right away. I took it out on the road and it runs almost too cool. Sure it was $$$ but it works very well and it fits. There probably was a cheaper way but I have yet to skimp on anything on this car yet. 
Race Director
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 19,659
Likes: 34
From: Lenoir City Tennessee
Ci 6, 8 & 10 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15
I called Tom about 5 years ago with my vettes symptoms and he set me up with a Direct Fit for mine with a Spal fan. Since the installation, my car never runs over 200 degrees. Usually when running down the road the temp never gets above the thermostat setpoint of 180. I have nothing but good things to say about Toms products and would not hesitate to buy from him again. 
This post was originally started by Bernie and he was asking about the cheapest way out know he would have to do some fabrication. I did not respond because I have seen Bernies work on here and know he could make a universal fit work. DeWitts dropped right in for my application but it costs a little more not to have to do the fabrication yourself.
This post was originally started by Bernie and he was asking about the cheapest way out know he would have to do some fabrication. I did not respond because I have seen Bernies work on here and know he could make a universal fit work. DeWitts dropped right in for my application but it costs a little more not to have to do the fabrication yourself.
Last edited by Eddie 70; Aug 9, 2006 at 10:53 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,128
Likes: 21
From: North Alabama
Originally Posted by Tom DeWitt
So, that's it for me. I used to enjoy checking in the forum and trying to help people out with cooling issues but not any more. You guys can have it all to yourself.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
Originally Posted by Tom DeWitt
Since we keep having these debates lately, I thought a C3 feature sheet might help some people. I spent about three hours the other night taking photos, creating a pdf file, and setting it up on our website for download. Did anyone see this or care?
Rich
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,071
Likes: 0
From: San Diego CA
Originally Posted by Tom DeWitt
I know where you are going with this...you are trying to find fault with our product and that's why I've been egnoring your posts. You already bought another radiator, now you want to justify it by pointing out something wrong with ours. You (and a few others) are jumping into each radiator thread and stiring the pot just for fun. Thanks
Since we keep having these debates lately, I thought a C3 feature sheet might help some people. I spent about three hours the other night taking photos, creating a pdf file, and setting it up on our website for download. Did anyone see this or care?
Anyway, I have nothing to hide, yes, there were two models for 77-88. These were the standard three 3 row (2" mount) and heavy duty four row (2 5/8" mount). The "D" dimension or header on our radiator is 3" and that will not work with the smaller brackets. Anyone with a three row wanting to upgrade to an aluminum radiator, mine or any other ones, will have to buy another set of brackets or modify the old ones.
The factory rubber cushions are about 3/8" thick, so you have another 3/4" under the metal brackets. A lot of guys tell me they just wrapped the top of the radiator with some 1/8 neoprene and deleted the cushions. The larger stock brackets work fine that way.
I try to make a radiator a Direct Fit, if and when it is possible but when someone wants a bigger radiator but tells me I can't make it any bigger when doing so, that's makes it really hard. It's the ten pounds in a five pound bag story. For the record, and I looked this up, we have sold over 250 of this model alone since we introduced the line in 2004. Not one person, (zero) has ever called to tell me they didn't fit. I guess they just assumed that since they ordered a bigger radiator that it was ok to send them one. All two row aluminum radiators, using 1" tubes are 2.25" thick.
So, that's it for me. I used to enjoy checking in the forum and trying to help people out with cooling issues but not any more. You guys can have it all to yourself.
Since we keep having these debates lately, I thought a C3 feature sheet might help some people. I spent about three hours the other night taking photos, creating a pdf file, and setting it up on our website for download. Did anyone see this or care?
Anyway, I have nothing to hide, yes, there were two models for 77-88. These were the standard three 3 row (2" mount) and heavy duty four row (2 5/8" mount). The "D" dimension or header on our radiator is 3" and that will not work with the smaller brackets. Anyone with a three row wanting to upgrade to an aluminum radiator, mine or any other ones, will have to buy another set of brackets or modify the old ones.
The factory rubber cushions are about 3/8" thick, so you have another 3/4" under the metal brackets. A lot of guys tell me they just wrapped the top of the radiator with some 1/8 neoprene and deleted the cushions. The larger stock brackets work fine that way.
I try to make a radiator a Direct Fit, if and when it is possible but when someone wants a bigger radiator but tells me I can't make it any bigger when doing so, that's makes it really hard. It's the ten pounds in a five pound bag story. For the record, and I looked this up, we have sold over 250 of this model alone since we introduced the line in 2004. Not one person, (zero) has ever called to tell me they didn't fit. I guess they just assumed that since they ordered a bigger radiator that it was ok to send them one. All two row aluminum radiators, using 1" tubes are 2.25" thick.
So, that's it for me. I used to enjoy checking in the forum and trying to help people out with cooling issues but not any more. You guys can have it all to yourself.
Basically, why would I pay over $200 more for a product that I would have to put the same work in to to make it do the same thing? Acquire the brackets and sell them with the radiator and support the direct fit name.
And here's a little question, why not just buy the northern factory #5066 radiator at wholesale and make the same modifications you do to yours? They're only like $220 - $260 a piece wholesale, you could then charge less for them and get more customers as this same radiator is actually $420 retail. (I checked a local dealer for the retail price on them)
Last edited by Kalway; Aug 10, 2006 at 02:26 AM.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
When I started this thread it wasn't to malign anyone's product; just to get as much information as possible to help me decide how I want to do this upgrade. I can afford Tom's radiator but for me, I enjoy the challange fabricating and using whatever ability I have to do something a little different. he Dewitt radiator has an unprecedented acceptance for quality and is the easiest way to make this upgrade. Tom, don't be so thin skinned, these guys were only asking you to provide info on your product. There is not a single person on the forum that can knock the quality of your product. The same American inginuity that you used to create a great product for a specific market lives in a lot of us. We want to create something different and special the same way you have, but for us it is an individual thing. We aren't interested in creating a company to market radiators; just keep hotrodding alive the way it used to be. There are too many people who own these great cars that have no desire or ability or time to make changes or repairs to their cars. People like you give them the opportunity to have something special that works flawlessly without all the trial and error some of us are willing to endure. If we lost you from the forum, the forum would lose and you would lose, and that shouldn't happen. I hope you stay with us because your are too important and valuable to us to lose you. That being said, how do you feel about double pass radiators and are you considering producing them in the future? Thanks for the support you give us as a group and individually. Although I have not yet had the opportunity to use your product I have always recommended it to others because of friends like Eddie70 that have used your radiator and have nothing but great things to say about it.
Bernie
Bernie
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,128
Likes: 21
From: North Alabama
Originally Posted by BerniesVette
When I started this thread it wasn't to malign anyone's product; just to get as much information as possible to help me decide how I want to do this upgrade. I can afford Tom's radiator but for me, I enjoy the challange fabricating and using whatever ability I have to do something a little different. he Dewitt radiator has an unprecedented acceptance for quality and is the easiest way to make this upgrade. Tom, don't be so thin skinned, these guys were only asking you to provide info on your product. There is not a single person on the forum that can knock the quality of your product. The same American inginuity that you used to create a great product for a specific market lives in a lot of us. We want to create something different and special the same way you have, but for us it is an individual thing. We aren't interested in creating a company to market radiators; just keep hotrodding alive the way it used to be. There are too many people who own these great cars that have no desire or ability or time to make changes or repairs to their cars. People like you give them the opportunity to have something special that works flawlessly without all the trial and error some of us are willing to endure. If we lost you from the forum, the forum would lose and you would lose, and that shouldn't happen. I hope you stay with us because your are too important and valuable to us to lose you. That being said, how do you feel about double pass radiators and are you considering producing them in the future? Thanks for the support you give us as a group and individually. Although I have not yet had the opportunity to use your product I have always recommended it to others because of friends like Eddie70 that have used your radiator and have nothing but great things to say about it.
Bernie
Bernie
Probably the best thought out comments on this whole Dewitt vs Universal uprising. Hang with us Tom
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Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
I have been researching double pass radiators from a previous post's suggestion. A local hotrod company sells an American made rad. that makes both, the single and double pass rad. The single pass is $179.00 and the double pass is $249.00. I was talking with a friend who races three cars and he recently installed a double bass rad. when his single pass was damaged in a wreck. He said the double pass lowered the temp 15 degrees over the single pass aluminum rad. The double pass rad has the inlet and outlet on the right so a swivel thermostat neck has to be used to get the upper hose to fit. I have inspected these radiators and they use the same type fins with the same size cores as everyone else. Nice heavy welds and the lower neck does turn up similar to the vette. I'm waiting on more forum members to tell us about their new aluminum radiators and how well they perform; especially with the A/C running in traffic. The more research I do, the more I find that there is new technology out there that might make our C3's maintain temps like my Chevy truck does no matter how hot traveling or sitting still.
Bernie
Bernie
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
My goal is to get a cooling system in place that will handle an upgraded A/C system in the most harsh environments. I want my car to operate comfortably in stop and go city traffic, A/C on, on a 100 degree day and the temp guage stay where it does like on all the other vehicles I own. That is why I want to know which radiator, water pump, t-stat and fan will keep it at a set temp with the most efficient A/C condensor creating cold air inside. I think it is possible to have an efficient cooling system and a comfortable car that runs good too! If a vendor is offended when I want to compare products it doesn't bother me, and it shouldn't bother him. A quality product will stand up to anyone's scrutiny. I asked for help and one forum member suggested other quality alternatives; and one suggested to check on double pass systems. Questions that haven't been answered soon will be. I will accomplish what I have set out to do with the help of those on the forum that seek the same things I do; a better car than it was when it was new doing it the way I want to do it!
Bernie
Bernie
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,106
Likes: 38
From: Newark DE
Bernie
having the cooling system handle an AC system shouldn't be a problem. A LOT of the C3 came with AC and they run fine temp-wise with the factory C/B rads. Going to an Aluminum rad typically gains you approx 20-30% better cooling capacity so if you drop in an aluminum rad you should be fine without requiring any additional upgrades to the cooling system.
The stock factory waterpump is perfectly fine as is the stock spec'd t-stat, fan, and fanclutch.
GM actually did a great job engineering the cooling system on these cars - they aren't simply a bunch of parts they threw in there *****-nilly and hoped they works, the system is designed and engineered as a SYSTEM to work efficiently and well and it does.
Usually more problems are encountered but throwing aftermarket "hot-rod" parts at it or trying to re-engineer the system than by leaving it as designed.
Adding the extra load on the coolinng system by adding an AC system is fine and even the factory C/B rad should be able to handle it but upgrading to an aluminum rad will simply increase your cooling capacity to extra margin of safety but I'd leave the rest along rather than trying to re-engineer everything.
more importanly than trying to also updrage the WP, fan etc that don't need to be, you should make sure that the other basics of the system are all in place such as the airdam under the nose and the seals are all in place.
having the cooling system handle an AC system shouldn't be a problem. A LOT of the C3 came with AC and they run fine temp-wise with the factory C/B rads. Going to an Aluminum rad typically gains you approx 20-30% better cooling capacity so if you drop in an aluminum rad you should be fine without requiring any additional upgrades to the cooling system.
The stock factory waterpump is perfectly fine as is the stock spec'd t-stat, fan, and fanclutch.
GM actually did a great job engineering the cooling system on these cars - they aren't simply a bunch of parts they threw in there *****-nilly and hoped they works, the system is designed and engineered as a SYSTEM to work efficiently and well and it does.
Usually more problems are encountered but throwing aftermarket "hot-rod" parts at it or trying to re-engineer the system than by leaving it as designed.
Adding the extra load on the coolinng system by adding an AC system is fine and even the factory C/B rad should be able to handle it but upgrading to an aluminum rad will simply increase your cooling capacity to extra margin of safety but I'd leave the rest along rather than trying to re-engineer everything.
more importanly than trying to also updrage the WP, fan etc that don't need to be, you should make sure that the other basics of the system are all in place such as the airdam under the nose and the seals are all in place.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
Originally Posted by BerniesVette
A quality product will stand up to anyone's scrutiny. I asked for help and one forum member suggested other quality alternatives; and one suggested to check on double pass systems. Questions that haven't been answered soon will be. I will accomplish what I have set out to do with the help of those on the forum that seek the same things I do; a better car than it was when it was new doing it the way I want to do it!
Bernie
Bernie
Rich
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
Originally Posted by BarryK
Bernie
having the cooling system handle an AC system shouldn't be a problem. A LOT of the C3 came with AC and they run fine temp-wise with the factory C/B rads. Going to an Aluminum rad typically gains you approx 20-30% better cooling capacity so if you drop in an aluminum rad you should be fine without requiring any additional upgrades to the cooling system.
The stock factory waterpump is perfectly fine as is the stock spec'd t-stat, fan, and fanclutch.
GM actually did a great job engineering the cooling system on these cars - they aren't simply a bunch of parts they threw in there *****-nilly and hoped they works, the system is designed and engineered as a SYSTEM to work efficiently and well and it does.
Usually more problems are encountered but throwing aftermarket "hot-rod" parts at it or trying to re-engineer the system than by leaving it as designed.
Adding the extra load on the coolinng system by adding an AC system is fine and even the factory C/B rad should be able to handle it but upgrading to an aluminum rad will simply increase your cooling capacity to extra margin of safety but I'd leave the rest along rather than trying to re-engineer everything.
more importanly than trying to also updrage the WP, fan etc that don't need to be, you should make sure that the other basics of the system are all in place such as the airdam under the nose and the seals are all in place.
having the cooling system handle an AC system shouldn't be a problem. A LOT of the C3 came with AC and they run fine temp-wise with the factory C/B rads. Going to an Aluminum rad typically gains you approx 20-30% better cooling capacity so if you drop in an aluminum rad you should be fine without requiring any additional upgrades to the cooling system.
The stock factory waterpump is perfectly fine as is the stock spec'd t-stat, fan, and fanclutch.
GM actually did a great job engineering the cooling system on these cars - they aren't simply a bunch of parts they threw in there *****-nilly and hoped they works, the system is designed and engineered as a SYSTEM to work efficiently and well and it does.
Usually more problems are encountered but throwing aftermarket "hot-rod" parts at it or trying to re-engineer the system than by leaving it as designed.
Adding the extra load on the coolinng system by adding an AC system is fine and even the factory C/B rad should be able to handle it but upgrading to an aluminum rad will simply increase your cooling capacity to extra margin of safety but I'd leave the rest along rather than trying to re-engineer everything.
more importanly than trying to also updrage the WP, fan etc that don't need to be, you should make sure that the other basics of the system are all in place such as the airdam under the nose and the seals are all in place.
Rich
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,112
Likes: 28
From: Florida
Originally Posted by rihwoods
right..going to a higher volume water pump can be detrimental to a stock cooling system radiator....in fact,temps could rise...
Rich
Rich
Q = U A ΔT
where
Q = Amount of Heat Transferred Over Time (BTUs/hr)
U = Heat Transfer Coefficient (BTUs / ft2-°F-hr)
A = Area Available for Heat Transfer (ft2)
ΔT = Temperature Difference (°F)
Quote:
U = Overall Heat Transfer Coefficient is affected by the thermal conductivity of the materials that the tubes and fins are made of, the viscosity and thermal conductivity of the two mediums and the velocities at which these mediums move through the coil. Medium velocity is important because a thin layer adheres to the rough surface of the metal thereby slowing the movement of the medium. This creates a laminar layer that insulates the bulk of the medium from touching the tube and/or fin surfaces. As a general rule, the faster the medium moves, the more turbulence is created, which breaks down this insulating laminar layer. The face area size of the coil and the number of coil tubes connected to the supply header (circuits) affects the velocity and the turbulence of the liquid moving through the coil.
This is not an opinion, just physics.
As you can see there is truth to higher flow.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
Originally Posted by noonie
Here is the basic formula for heat transfer thru radiators.
Q = U A ΔT
where
Q = Amount of Heat Transferred Over Time (BTUs/hr)
U = Heat Transfer Coefficient (BTUs / ft2-°F-hr)
A = Area Available for Heat Transfer (ft2)
ΔT = Temperature Difference (°F)
Quote:
U = Overall Heat Transfer Coefficient is affected by the thermal conductivity of the materials that the tubes and fins are made of, the viscosity and thermal conductivity of the two mediums and the velocities at which these mediums move through the coil. Medium velocity is important because a thin layer adheres to the rough surface of the metal thereby slowing the movement of the medium. This creates a laminar layer that insulates the bulk of the medium from touching the tube and/or fin surfaces. As a general rule, the faster the medium moves, the more turbulence is created, which breaks down this insulating laminar layer. The face area size of the coil and the number of coil tubes connected to the supply header (circuits) affects the velocity and the turbulence of the liquid moving through the coil.
This is not an opinion, just physics.
As you can see there is truth to higher flow.
Q = U A ΔT
where
Q = Amount of Heat Transferred Over Time (BTUs/hr)
U = Heat Transfer Coefficient (BTUs / ft2-°F-hr)
A = Area Available for Heat Transfer (ft2)
ΔT = Temperature Difference (°F)
Quote:
U = Overall Heat Transfer Coefficient is affected by the thermal conductivity of the materials that the tubes and fins are made of, the viscosity and thermal conductivity of the two mediums and the velocities at which these mediums move through the coil. Medium velocity is important because a thin layer adheres to the rough surface of the metal thereby slowing the movement of the medium. This creates a laminar layer that insulates the bulk of the medium from touching the tube and/or fin surfaces. As a general rule, the faster the medium moves, the more turbulence is created, which breaks down this insulating laminar layer. The face area size of the coil and the number of coil tubes connected to the supply header (circuits) affects the velocity and the turbulence of the liquid moving through the coil.
This is not an opinion, just physics.
As you can see there is truth to higher flow.
Rich