Looking for radiator advice.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
Guys,
Here is what I have now. A stock c/b rad with two 12" electric fans attached to the rad., stock shroud and stock engine fan. The car also has stock A/C. Now, call me dumb, but my car does not overheat. In fact it runs a little cool on the hwy. In traffic with the a/c on it will creep up but has never overheated. I had the rad. rodded two years ago when I installed the elec. fans and replaced the seals around the rad. I want to upgrade the A/C system to make it colder inside and add an aluminum rad. to upgrade the cooling sys. The double pass rad. I have found is aluminum as is the higher flow water pump which both reduce weight, which is something else I am doing. I can buy a double pass aluminum rad. for $249.00 and an aluminum water pump for $79.00. If the data proves to be right this is what I will probably end up going with. The jury is still out as this will be a winter project along with jeep steering, hydroboost brakes, Lincoln Mark VIII electric fan, and hopefully aluminum heads and stronger cam. I do like overkill when it comes to upgrading systems, especially if they add to the safety, reliability, and comfort of the car. Gearheads can be inovative if given the time and right components to work with. I appreciate all the participation on this post and look forward to all those who are doing the testing and evaluations for us!
Bernie
Here is what I have now. A stock c/b rad with two 12" electric fans attached to the rad., stock shroud and stock engine fan. The car also has stock A/C. Now, call me dumb, but my car does not overheat. In fact it runs a little cool on the hwy. In traffic with the a/c on it will creep up but has never overheated. I had the rad. rodded two years ago when I installed the elec. fans and replaced the seals around the rad. I want to upgrade the A/C system to make it colder inside and add an aluminum rad. to upgrade the cooling sys. The double pass rad. I have found is aluminum as is the higher flow water pump which both reduce weight, which is something else I am doing. I can buy a double pass aluminum rad. for $249.00 and an aluminum water pump for $79.00. If the data proves to be right this is what I will probably end up going with. The jury is still out as this will be a winter project along with jeep steering, hydroboost brakes, Lincoln Mark VIII electric fan, and hopefully aluminum heads and stronger cam. I do like overkill when it comes to upgrading systems, especially if they add to the safety, reliability, and comfort of the car. Gearheads can be inovative if given the time and right components to work with. I appreciate all the participation on this post and look forward to all those who are doing the testing and evaluations for us!
Bernie
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,672
Likes: 1
From: New Cumberland PA
Originally Posted by I'm Batman
I thought the brackets were the same and the cutout on the rubber isolator was different.
This is not in anyway shape or form meant to be negative but rather constructive. The radiator should have had a option for new cushions that are correct for mounting the radaitor or a side note that the original cushions will have to be modified.
I am very pleased with the quality of Tom's radiator. If I had to do things over, I would still choose a radiator by Dewitts.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
Barry,
I have to, both, agree and respectfully disagree with you concerning the cooling system. I agree that the GM engineers did a good job designing the cooling system for the C3 with the design limitations they faced and GM budget criteria. The slanted radiator was a compromise caused by the front design of the car that the designers would not change. Using 70's technology they did an adequate job creating a cooling system that does cool the car under most circumstances. Thirty plus years later we have had vast improvements in radiator technology, water pump design and a better understanding of how a cooling system should and can work. Today's vehicles can sit and idle all day in 100 plus degree heat and the temp guage will not move. I do it everyday im my company Taurus. You simply cannot do that with a C3 with a stock cooling system with or without the A/C on; and you should be able to! Thru trial and error, before I knew this forum existed and before I knew about better t-stats, radiators and water pumps, I took my 79 from running over 200 degrees to running at or below 180. What I want to accomplish now is to keep the temp constant instead of it spiking and falling off and spiking again as the fan and t-stat turn on and off and open and close. With todays technology and more trial and error I believe that I can have my C3 running as efficiently as todays vehicles. Again, you are quite correct, it is a system and any changes should be made as a system to insure that the system operates as efficiently as it should. A good friend told me that he asks his car what it likes. Thru trial and error, just like my friend, I am asking my car what it does and doesn't like. We do this every time we try a different spark plug, shock absorber and any other change we make. Some work and some do not; we just learn from it and go on. Thanks for your help with this as it is something that is important to all of us!
Bernie
I have to, both, agree and respectfully disagree with you concerning the cooling system. I agree that the GM engineers did a good job designing the cooling system for the C3 with the design limitations they faced and GM budget criteria. The slanted radiator was a compromise caused by the front design of the car that the designers would not change. Using 70's technology they did an adequate job creating a cooling system that does cool the car under most circumstances. Thirty plus years later we have had vast improvements in radiator technology, water pump design and a better understanding of how a cooling system should and can work. Today's vehicles can sit and idle all day in 100 plus degree heat and the temp guage will not move. I do it everyday im my company Taurus. You simply cannot do that with a C3 with a stock cooling system with or without the A/C on; and you should be able to! Thru trial and error, before I knew this forum existed and before I knew about better t-stats, radiators and water pumps, I took my 79 from running over 200 degrees to running at or below 180. What I want to accomplish now is to keep the temp constant instead of it spiking and falling off and spiking again as the fan and t-stat turn on and off and open and close. With todays technology and more trial and error I believe that I can have my C3 running as efficiently as todays vehicles. Again, you are quite correct, it is a system and any changes should be made as a system to insure that the system operates as efficiently as it should. A good friend told me that he asks his car what it likes. Thru trial and error, just like my friend, I am asking my car what it does and doesn't like. We do this every time we try a different spark plug, shock absorber and any other change we make. Some work and some do not; we just learn from it and go on. Thanks for your help with this as it is something that is important to all of us!
Bernie
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
Tom DeWitt,
Several days ago I asked for advice on radiators. I knew that there would be overwhelming support of your product. Why not, it does exactly what you say it will do. I asked for data to compare radiators to confirm which radiator was the best value. I truly believed we would find your radiator superior to all the others. Instead of contributing positively to this thread you became evasive, critical and even biligerant to those that kept asking for your specs. I couldn't understand why until I found that radiators are pretty much the same no matter who makes them; one is no more efficient than another, both being the same size and made of the same material. Yes, there are some poor quality radiators out there, but the ones I have personally inspected, including yours, have very little differences. Yours is a direct replacement, and for that, you should receive a premium, but I have to ask how you can justify a 50 to 60 percent premium for it to fit without very minor modification. As a supporting vendor I would have liked for you to have responded to my question concerning double pass radiators and I have heard nothing from you. Who are you supporting? Are we here for your benefit or are you here for our benefit? I have to say that I am dissapointed in your additude toward the questions you were asked, your failure to respond in a positive manner and ignoring ligitamate questions concerning current technology. Needless to say, I will be purchasing someone elses product that was intheuseastic about answering my questions, willingly provided data on their product and asked me to compare their radiator to others before I made a decison. Thanks for all the "support".
Bernie
Several days ago I asked for advice on radiators. I knew that there would be overwhelming support of your product. Why not, it does exactly what you say it will do. I asked for data to compare radiators to confirm which radiator was the best value. I truly believed we would find your radiator superior to all the others. Instead of contributing positively to this thread you became evasive, critical and even biligerant to those that kept asking for your specs. I couldn't understand why until I found that radiators are pretty much the same no matter who makes them; one is no more efficient than another, both being the same size and made of the same material. Yes, there are some poor quality radiators out there, but the ones I have personally inspected, including yours, have very little differences. Yours is a direct replacement, and for that, you should receive a premium, but I have to ask how you can justify a 50 to 60 percent premium for it to fit without very minor modification. As a supporting vendor I would have liked for you to have responded to my question concerning double pass radiators and I have heard nothing from you. Who are you supporting? Are we here for your benefit or are you here for our benefit? I have to say that I am dissapointed in your additude toward the questions you were asked, your failure to respond in a positive manner and ignoring ligitamate questions concerning current technology. Needless to say, I will be purchasing someone elses product that was intheuseastic about answering my questions, willingly provided data on their product and asked me to compare their radiator to others before I made a decison. Thanks for all the "support".
Bernie
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 1
From: VetteMOD
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by BerniesVette
Tom DeWitt,
Several days ago I asked for advice on radiators. I knew that there would be overwhelming support of your product. Why not, it does exactly what you say it will do. I asked for data to compare radiators to confirm which radiator was the best value. I truly believed we would find your radiator superior to all the others. Instead of contributing positively to this thread you became evasive, critical and even belligerent to those that kept asking for your specs. I couldn't understand why until I found that radiators are pretty much the same no matter who makes them; one is no more efficient than another, both being the same size and made of the same material. Yes, there are some poor quality radiators out there, but the ones I have personally inspected, including yours, have very little differences. Yours is a direct replacement, and for that, you should receive a premium, but I have to ask how you can justify a 50 to 60 percent premium for it to fit without very minor modification. As a supporting vendor I would have liked for you to have responded to my question concerning double pass radiators and I have heard nothing from you. Who are you supporting? Are we here for your benefit or are you here for our benefit? I have to say that I am dissapointed in your additude toward the questions you were asked, your failure to respond in a positive manner and ignoring ligitamate questions concerning current technology. Needless to say, I will be purchasing someone elses product that was intheuseastic about answering my questions, willingly provided data on their product and asked me to compare their radiator to others before I made a decison. Thanks for all the "support".
Bernie
Several days ago I asked for advice on radiators. I knew that there would be overwhelming support of your product. Why not, it does exactly what you say it will do. I asked for data to compare radiators to confirm which radiator was the best value. I truly believed we would find your radiator superior to all the others. Instead of contributing positively to this thread you became evasive, critical and even belligerent to those that kept asking for your specs. I couldn't understand why until I found that radiators are pretty much the same no matter who makes them; one is no more efficient than another, both being the same size and made of the same material. Yes, there are some poor quality radiators out there, but the ones I have personally inspected, including yours, have very little differences. Yours is a direct replacement, and for that, you should receive a premium, but I have to ask how you can justify a 50 to 60 percent premium for it to fit without very minor modification. As a supporting vendor I would have liked for you to have responded to my question concerning double pass radiators and I have heard nothing from you. Who are you supporting? Are we here for your benefit or are you here for our benefit? I have to say that I am dissapointed in your additude toward the questions you were asked, your failure to respond in a positive manner and ignoring ligitamate questions concerning current technology. Needless to say, I will be purchasing someone elses product that was intheuseastic about answering my questions, willingly provided data on their product and asked me to compare their radiator to others before I made a decison. Thanks for all the "support".
Bernie
As far as supporting this forum, he contributed $1000 to the C3 car show. Maybe you could care less about the car show but you have to admit, it is a show of support that other "supporting" vendors did not even come close to.
Bernie, you seem like a reasonable, level headed contributor to this forum but I just don't understand why Dewitts responses incite such contention.
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
From: Merritt Island FL
long post not reading all
i just put the dewitt in my 81 that had the small rad ,you just have to put new rubbers on that hold the tanks they are for hd or L82 cars .
ecklers part 22955 ,22954 page 142 in the c3 catalog. they are open more on the in side to fit the bigger tank thats the only mod.your changing them any way right.
i just put the dewitt in my 81 that had the small rad ,you just have to put new rubbers on that hold the tanks they are for hd or L82 cars .
ecklers part 22955 ,22954 page 142 in the c3 catalog. they are open more on the in side to fit the bigger tank thats the only mod.your changing them any way right.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,752
Likes: 4
From: Austin Texas
My 2 cents...Where does it say that a Supporting member has to answer questions about their product in this forum? Tom was nice enough to help out by responding in spite of some impolite replies. How many other vendors can you recall that have been as helpful as Tom? BTW, try not to **** off the Sponsors/Supporting members, as they are responsible for keeping this site free for you and me.
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Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
BBShark,
I had to think about this long and hard before making my post. Tom hasn't been beat up on this forum before; at least not in the time that I have been associated with it. And he most certainly was not bashed in this thread until he made assumptions that the only reasons others were wanting information from him was to have a way to critize him or his product. There are many supporting vendors on the forum who readily answer questions everyday realizing that the person may or may not purchase from them and never critize the persons motive. Van Steele is one who comes to mind. Did some of the members goad him when he was not forthcoming with details that would only benefit him? They did; but was that reason enough to accuse them of wanting to find fault with his product? Again, I cannot find fault with his product but I do find fault with his attitude towards the very people that can help hime the most.
It was very nice of him to donate $1,000 to a C3 show. It is a writeoff which will save him tax dollars. Yet donations are always a nice jesture to say thanks for C3 owners supporting his business with hard earned dollars. I guess my definanition of "support" is different from some. I just assumed that if you support the existance of the forum you naturally would support the members themselves. The statement is correct "where does it say that a supporting vendor has to answer questions" the answer is: I guess he doesn't.
In the end it all comes down to how we feel about the outcome personally. I like to purchase from people I feel good about, people who take an interest in what my problem is and try to help. Tom hasn't shown that to me. I do wish him well in his business and hope that he continues to support the forum. There are many people here that he can help.
Bernie
I had to think about this long and hard before making my post. Tom hasn't been beat up on this forum before; at least not in the time that I have been associated with it. And he most certainly was not bashed in this thread until he made assumptions that the only reasons others were wanting information from him was to have a way to critize him or his product. There are many supporting vendors on the forum who readily answer questions everyday realizing that the person may or may not purchase from them and never critize the persons motive. Van Steele is one who comes to mind. Did some of the members goad him when he was not forthcoming with details that would only benefit him? They did; but was that reason enough to accuse them of wanting to find fault with his product? Again, I cannot find fault with his product but I do find fault with his attitude towards the very people that can help hime the most.
It was very nice of him to donate $1,000 to a C3 show. It is a writeoff which will save him tax dollars. Yet donations are always a nice jesture to say thanks for C3 owners supporting his business with hard earned dollars. I guess my definanition of "support" is different from some. I just assumed that if you support the existance of the forum you naturally would support the members themselves. The statement is correct "where does it say that a supporting vendor has to answer questions" the answer is: I guess he doesn't.
In the end it all comes down to how we feel about the outcome personally. I like to purchase from people I feel good about, people who take an interest in what my problem is and try to help. Tom hasn't shown that to me. I do wish him well in his business and hope that he continues to support the forum. There are many people here that he can help.
Bernie
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
On the positve side, I think Tom did two things that clairified information on his site...the detail photos of the C3 alum rad and clarification of the thickness question re mounting brackets...it sure helped me in terms of "fit" should I find that an aluminum rad is my choice over some new C/B's....
I also think Bernie's thread question was valid,as it was specific and open to anyone to respond....
I also think Bernie's thread question was valid,as it was specific and open to anyone to respond....
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
Originally Posted by sav22
what colour do you think i sould colour my car for the look and feel:
heres a pic of my car in a magazine
http://www.breakawaytours.com/flyer/...px?bcode=4767E
heres a pic of my car in a magazine
http://www.breakawaytours.com/flyer/...px?bcode=4767E
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
I have to apologize that this thread became something other than simply a fact finding mission to have some specific data to compare a component that I am thinking of replacing this winter. I still hope that everyone will post the results of their individual upgrades. I hope that Capt. Ron and ESU cure their heating problems; if I could be there to help them I would. I harbour no malice toward Tom or his product; again just disappointed. Each of us have to live with the things we do and say and I regret having this thread ruined. Pointing fingers and callous remarks only hurt others and never solve problems or answer questions; and the forum suffers as a result. From now on I will keep my mouth shut, drive my vette, make my modifications and continue to read the interesting and informative threads that increase the pleasure of this hobby.
Bernie
Bernie
Racer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
From: Ocean City MD
Here is my opinion, and my background is as a Master tech, service manager of an independent shop and have worked as both a Gm and Ford tech. It comes down to fit, features, and budget. I have installed 3 dewitts radiators and 1 Becool all in C3 vettes. As far a the Dewitts goes it does all it promises. They fit perfectly, using 99% of the factory hardware. The quality is great. Everything is exactly where is is supposed to be.
I have installed many northern radiators only one in a vette, my 79. The universial Summit/Northern radiator does all it promises. It works well, and the quality is good. It is made of heavy gauge aluminum and the welds look great. The fit however sucks. On my 79 it barely fits. If it were a 1/4" in any direction it would not have fit. Even though I was not going to use it there was no way I would have been able to use the factory mounts or shroud.
I am sure is you did a side by side comparison on how they cooled you would not find a great margin of difference. So it all comes down to fit, features and budget. I will say I have less in my radiator, high flow chrome water pump, new Lincoln Mark VIII fan, fan controller, hoses, t-stat, custom mounts, chrome water neck, and coolat than the price of just the Dewitts radiator. Just my opinion.
I have installed many northern radiators only one in a vette, my 79. The universial Summit/Northern radiator does all it promises. It works well, and the quality is good. It is made of heavy gauge aluminum and the welds look great. The fit however sucks. On my 79 it barely fits. If it were a 1/4" in any direction it would not have fit. Even though I was not going to use it there was no way I would have been able to use the factory mounts or shroud.
I am sure is you did a side by side comparison on how they cooled you would not find a great margin of difference. So it all comes down to fit, features and budget. I will say I have less in my radiator, high flow chrome water pump, new Lincoln Mark VIII fan, fan controller, hoses, t-stat, custom mounts, chrome water neck, and coolat than the price of just the Dewitts radiator. Just my opinion.
Last edited by windsoreight; Aug 12, 2006 at 03:43 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,128
Likes: 21
From: North Alabama
Originally Posted by windsoreight
I will say I have less in my radiator, high flow chrome water pump, new Lincoln Mark VIII fan, fan controller, hoses, t-stat, custom mounts, chrome water neck, and coolat than the price of just the Dewitts radiator. Just my opinion.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,128
Likes: 21
From: North Alabama
Originally Posted by SHAKERATTLEROLL
Hey J you sound a tad speechless which is not like you lol. 
Originally Posted by windsoreight
I will say I have less in my radiator, high flow chrome water pump, new Lincoln Mark VIII fan, fan controller, hoses, t-stat, custom mounts, chrome water neck, and coolat than the price of just the Dewitts radiator. Just my opinion.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
Windsoreight, J, and ShakRattle&Roll,
This is what gearheads live for and what hotrodding, in our case, vetterodding is all about. I thrive on making my 79 better than it was and saving money doing it. I almost wish it were winter already so I can start pulling the engine, making all these upgrades and posting pics that will help save other forum members tons of money while getting them everything they deserve in a cooling system!
Bernie
This is what gearheads live for and what hotrodding, in our case, vetterodding is all about. I thrive on making my 79 better than it was and saving money doing it. I almost wish it were winter already so I can start pulling the engine, making all these upgrades and posting pics that will help save other forum members tons of money while getting them everything they deserve in a cooling system!
Bernie
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,362
Likes: 1
From: San Antonio TX
Since we are on the topic of cooling. 
And if you also run a stock Fan Clutch. Here is some good information to look at.
http://wiki.corvettefaq.com/index.php?title=Cooling
And look under Fan Clutch Install.
The new ones are set at a higher Temp than what was originally put on our cars. This info is here to help you correct that so that your Fan Clutch will operate the way it should.
Also there is a bunch more info on cooling as well. Some good reading I must say.
BerniesVette thank you a bunch but that is what or should I say what I think the forum is for. No matter if you are going stock or trying new things. The forum is here for ideas and help no matter which direction you may want to go. The most important thing is to have fun no matter what as life is short.
And a direct link to a Rad install Griffen in a 71 with lots of info.http://www.corvettefaq.com/c3/GriffinFans.doc
And here is the main page. http://wiki.corvettefaq.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
Lots of info there and is very much worth adding to your favorites.
And if you also run a stock Fan Clutch. Here is some good information to look at. http://wiki.corvettefaq.com/index.php?title=Cooling
And look under Fan Clutch Install.
The new ones are set at a higher Temp than what was originally put on our cars. This info is here to help you correct that so that your Fan Clutch will operate the way it should.
Also there is a bunch more info on cooling as well. Some good reading I must say.
BerniesVette thank you a bunch but that is what or should I say what I think the forum is for. No matter if you are going stock or trying new things. The forum is here for ideas and help no matter which direction you may want to go. The most important thing is to have fun no matter what as life is short.
And a direct link to a Rad install Griffen in a 71 with lots of info.
http://www.corvettefaq.com/c3/GriffinFans.docAnd here is the main page. http://wiki.corvettefaq.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
Lots of info there and is very much worth adding to your favorites.
Last edited by SHAKERATTLEROLL; Aug 12, 2006 at 09:23 PM.