Help with big cube Small Block.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 407
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From: Freedom Pa
Help with big cube Small Block.
Hi, I have a couple of 400 SBC blocks & wanted to put together a 406. I kinda got thinking, why should I spend all this money on machine work & end up with a block I can not rebuild past this build? So, I am going to use a Aftermarket Block with a 4.125" Bore & all Forged Lower's. Also, all the cranks, rods & pistons are relatively close in price so what stroke crank should I buy? I hear the 3.75" is a walk in the park with few issues. How big of stroke can I run without going to a small diameter cam or is it a viable option to get a Dart Iron Eagle block with the raised cam location. I don't want a exotic & expensive set up. I just want a premium gas usable street engine & I'll be using AFR 195 heads (might bite & get the Competition machined ones) & probably a hydraulic roller or a mild solid street roller, I haven't thought that hard on it. I also am curious if the extra 15 or 27 cubes will be usable with the 195 heads. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Al
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Forked River NJ
If you are building anything 400+ cubes the 195s will be to small. If a low rpm torque motor is what you want they will work but a bigger set is needed. If you have an aftermarket block 427 or larger is no problem. Depending on the block you might need a small base circle cam.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,943
Likes: 3
From: Wildwood IL
You will get many opinions on this, so you'll have to decide what you want out of your motor. Idel quality...RPM range...street only...street/strip....etc. These factors will determine your component choices.
If your sold on AFR 195's, wait for the new Eliminator series to come out. Acording to AFR, they flow as well as or close to the current Race 210's but you'll sacrifice some high end HP.
The 195's will give good fuel velocity, low end torque & streetability, but you'll loose some top end HP. Optimum head size for a street driven traffic jam 406ci is around 200cc. A high lift (500-550) lower durration (230*-240* @ .050) hydraulic roller cam will also give you great streetability and make pleanty of power in the "street" RPM range. (5500-6000) If you plan on spinning the motor @ + 6000RPM and want all top end power (not practical for the street in my opinion) then a larger head (210cc) size & cam will be needed for optimum power. Your rear gearing, trans, & head size will also dictate your cam choice. Also...I have a 406 with 6" rods, and a standard base circle cam has pleanty of rod clearance.
Opinions will vary....this is just mine.
Good luck with your choice
Eddie
If your sold on AFR 195's, wait for the new Eliminator series to come out. Acording to AFR, they flow as well as or close to the current Race 210's but you'll sacrifice some high end HP.
The 195's will give good fuel velocity, low end torque & streetability, but you'll loose some top end HP. Optimum head size for a street driven traffic jam 406ci is around 200cc. A high lift (500-550) lower durration (230*-240* @ .050) hydraulic roller cam will also give you great streetability and make pleanty of power in the "street" RPM range. (5500-6000) If you plan on spinning the motor @ + 6000RPM and want all top end power (not practical for the street in my opinion) then a larger head (210cc) size & cam will be needed for optimum power. Your rear gearing, trans, & head size will also dictate your cam choice. Also...I have a 406 with 6" rods, and a standard base circle cam has pleanty of rod clearance.
Opinions will vary....this is just mine.
Good luck with your choice
Eddie
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From: South of giving a damn
St. Jude Donor '11, '17
New 195s are available for order, but lead time is about 10-12 weeks. Ordered mine last week. Numbers I have do show the 195s outflowing just about everything thing AFR currently builds. Comp 195 & 210s aren't available yet, but soon. I'm lead times will be long also. If you are using an aftermarket block & building a big CI engine, I'd wait for the larger heads or you'll be leaving a lot on the table.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
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From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
4 inch stroker 427ci is the smallest of aftermarket small blocks.
I at first used my AFR 210's on my 427 SBC with a XR280r solid roller 242/248 with 1.65 rockers. AFR told me that the 210cc could support up to 600 hp. The motor was a real TQ monster, but just didn't have the crackle of a real more race motor. I exchanged the heads for Dart 227cc race heads and the motor really ran pretty good right up to my 7000 red line.
The short deck block kind of requires a small base circle cam. My advice is to also run 300+ cfm intake heads with spread port headers to actually be able to use 1 7/8 or 2 inch headers
I at first used my AFR 210's on my 427 SBC with a XR280r solid roller 242/248 with 1.65 rockers. AFR told me that the 210cc could support up to 600 hp. The motor was a real TQ monster, but just didn't have the crackle of a real more race motor. I exchanged the heads for Dart 227cc race heads and the motor really ran pretty good right up to my 7000 red line.
The short deck block kind of requires a small base circle cam. My advice is to also run 300+ cfm intake heads with spread port headers to actually be able to use 1 7/8 or 2 inch headers
Last edited by gkull; Sep 5, 2006 at 10:40 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
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They built a 472 on horse power TV using an iron eagle block. it clears
a 4.250 stroke with the wider pan rail, they used a 4.20 bore to get
the 472cu. the taller deck hieght is an advantage if you use
a 3.75/4.00 stroke crank it allows you to use a longer rod. It takes a
different pan, timing chain, timing chain cover, has no oil filter pad
you have to run a remote filter, dart has intake manifolds for the
raised deck, the pan and timing cover I believe are the same as the
chevy rocket blocks, no problem finding parts for it. if you are not going over a 3.75stroke it would not be worth the extra costs.The taller deck would be a help with using a longer rod if you go with a 4.00 stroke.
a 4.250 stroke with the wider pan rail, they used a 4.20 bore to get
the 472cu. the taller deck hieght is an advantage if you use
a 3.75/4.00 stroke crank it allows you to use a longer rod. It takes a
different pan, timing chain, timing chain cover, has no oil filter pad
you have to run a remote filter, dart has intake manifolds for the
raised deck, the pan and timing cover I believe are the same as the
chevy rocket blocks, no problem finding parts for it. if you are not going over a 3.75stroke it would not be worth the extra costs.The taller deck would be a help with using a longer rod if you go with a 4.00 stroke.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Sep 5, 2006 at 11:37 AM.
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Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
This is taken from Ohio crank website
454 Cubic Inch Chevy Pump Gas Small Block
On our Superflo dyno this motor made 455 HP with an amazing 550 ft. lb. of torque. It idles great, runs on 92 pump gas, has good throttle response and driveability. This would be the ideal street rod small block. It features a Motown block, 4340 steel crank, H-beam rods, forged pistons, Canton pan, Sportsman II heads, Motown intake, and roller rockers. It's just really cool to have a 454 SMALL block in your hotrod.
$6995
454 Cubic Inch Chevy Pump Gas Small Block
On our Superflo dyno this motor made 455 HP with an amazing 550 ft. lb. of torque. It idles great, runs on 92 pump gas, has good throttle response and driveability. This would be the ideal street rod small block. It features a Motown block, 4340 steel crank, H-beam rods, forged pistons, Canton pan, Sportsman II heads, Motown intake, and roller rockers. It's just really cool to have a 454 SMALL block in your hotrod.
$6995
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
Originally Posted by norvalwilhelm
This is taken from Ohio crank website
454 Cubic Inch Chevy Pump Gas Small Block
On our Superflo dyno this motor made 455 HP with an amazing 550 ft. lb. of torque. It idles great, runs on 92 pump gas, has good throttle response and driveability. This would be the ideal street rod small block. It features a Motown block, 4340 steel crank, H-beam rods, forged pistons, Canton pan, Sportsman II heads, Motown intake, and roller rockers. It's just really cool to have a 454 SMALL block in your hotrod.
$6995
454 Cubic Inch Chevy Pump Gas Small Block
On our Superflo dyno this motor made 455 HP with an amazing 550 ft. lb. of torque. It idles great, runs on 92 pump gas, has good throttle response and driveability. This would be the ideal street rod small block. It features a Motown block, 4340 steel crank, H-beam rods, forged pistons, Canton pan, Sportsman II heads, Motown intake, and roller rockers. It's just really cool to have a 454 SMALL block in your hotrod.
$6995
Last edited by Little Mouse; Sep 5, 2006 at 12:22 PM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 407
Likes: 11
From: Freedom Pa
Yes, I was aware of the new Eliminator 195's from AFR, I was going to order them. AFR says a 195 head that had the "competition CNC package" done to it could support a 434 for street operation. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what stroke do you have to run a reduced diameter cam or go to a raised cam in the block. The raised cam issue will increase the cost of the build $500 or so. I do not know if you can run a raised cam with a normal type chain that is just longer, I don't understand the options. If say, a 3 7/8" stroke could be accommadated without the raised cam or a small diameter cam, then I would go that way. I think all the 4" strokes have to addressed with the cam issue. Also, does a Solid Roller have a wider RPM range than a Hydralic Roller? Sorry to be asking so much, but I just trying to make my build right. Thanks for the input!
Race Director
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
You say you don't want a exotic & expensive set up so forget about the Iron Eagle block. Use one of 400 blocks, use ARP main studs and head studs, get the Scat 9000 internally balanced 3.75" stroke crank, some nice forged lightweight SIR rods and speedpro flat top piston. THis is like building a stock motor, no clearancing and off the shelf parts.
Add a solid roller cam like mine with AFR 210's or Vic Jr's and you will be a happy camper, 500+ HP and 500+ TQ. MIne is so much fun to drive, it has all the torque you need to tool around town at 1500RPM and when you hit the gas, hold on.
Frankly I am suprised there aren't a boatload of C3's with 406's running around. I have never driven a car that is so much fun
Add a solid roller cam like mine with AFR 210's or Vic Jr's and you will be a happy camper, 500+ HP and 500+ TQ. MIne is so much fun to drive, it has all the torque you need to tool around town at 1500RPM and when you hit the gas, hold on.
Frankly I am suprised there aren't a boatload of C3's with 406's running around. I have never driven a car that is so much fun
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
If you buy what are called stroker rods that are angled at the
rod bolt head you can run the 3.75 crank without a raised cam
block. If you are starting from scratch and have to buy new rods
go that rout Crower and other companies have them.
rod bolt head you can run the 3.75 crank without a raised cam
block. If you are starting from scratch and have to buy new rods
go that rout Crower and other companies have them.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Freedom Pa
Yes, I'm starting to lean that way. I will probably do the "Little M" block & run the 4 1/8" pistons because I can probably sell my stock 400 block for $400-$500 & have a couple of rebuilds left in Dart block. I am sticking to the new AFR 195's because I want the heat crossovers in the heads. I know I'll take abuse here because nobody runs them but I want something I can run in cool weather without warming it up forever. Do the solid roller cams have a "wider" rpm range of power or is that just my mistaken impression? Thanks again.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
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Originally Posted by alnukem
Yes, I'm starting to lean that way. I will probably do the "Little M" block & run the 4 1/8" pistons because I can probably sell my stock 400 block for $400-$500 & have a couple of rebuilds left in Dart block. I am sticking to the new AFR 195's because I want the heat crossovers in the heads. I know I'll take abuse here because nobody runs them but I want something I can run in cool weather without warming it up forever. Do the solid roller cams have a "wider" rpm range of power or is that just my mistaken impression? Thanks again.
the old factory blocks.
roller cams have a wider power rangejust ask motorhead.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Sep 5, 2006 at 11:41 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Originally Posted by alnukem
Yes, I'm starting to lean that way. I will probably do the "Little M" block & run the 4 1/8" pistons because I can probably sell my stock 400 block for $400-$500 & have a couple of rebuilds left in Dart block. I am sticking to the new AFR 195's because I want the heat crossovers in the heads. I know I'll take abuse here because nobody runs them but I want something I can run in cool weather without warming it up forever. Do the solid roller cams have a "wider" rpm range of power or is that just my mistaken impression? Thanks again.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,209
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From: Mo
I would go 427 or 434,if you want something streetable I would run a hyd roller,if have never run a solid roller on the street they can be pain,I run in my 94 lt1 and I have gotten use to adjusting the valves every 3 thousand miles.
I haven't seen the afr's new 195's but I run there lt-1 heads and they are a nice piece.
I would do either motor with 11'1 comp and either cam style,I would go big in the cam selection with like a 258-262 dura @ 050.in the 600 lift area.
All that should be in the area of one very bad street motor.I have built some 488 inch sbc race engines and they are killer.
I haven't seen the afr's new 195's but I run there lt-1 heads and they are a nice piece.
I would do either motor with 11'1 comp and either cam style,I would go big in the cam selection with like a 258-262 dura @ 050.in the 600 lift area.
All that should be in the area of one very bad street motor.I have built some 488 inch sbc race engines and they are killer.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted by ratflinger
New 195s are available for order, but lead time is about 10-12 weeks. Ordered mine last week. Numbers I have do show the 195s outflowing just about everything thing AFR currently builds. Comp 195 & 210s aren't available yet, but soon. I'm lead times will be long also. If you are using an aftermarket block & building a big CI engine, I'd wait for the larger heads or you'll be leaving a lot on the table.
at .600 valve lift will it have the heat crossover he wants??
Thats enough airflow to support a lot of HP.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Freedom Pa
I should have said "heat riser". It helps your engine warm up on cold starts by heating your intake, after that, I understand it hurts performance by making the fuel warmer & less dense of charge.....one of the trade-offs. And, yes, the AFR 195's are the biggest heads that have this feature.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Forked River NJ
Unless you are running in below freezing weather all the time you do not need the the crossover in the heads. Mine warms up fine in about a minute or two. I run no choke and it is OK. I can drive it with warming it up for a minute or so. It might stumble once or twice but it does not stall.