solid T-arm bushings
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Galloway Twp. NJ
Cruise-In VII Veteran
solid T-arm bushings
I have a set of brand new solid T-arm bushings that I'm not going to use.
I've had them for about 15 years, I believe they were made by Herb Adams VSE, I want to sell them but I don't know what they're worth.
anybody have any ideas?
I'll post pics in a few...................
I've had them for about 15 years, I believe they were made by Herb Adams VSE, I want to sell them but I don't know what they're worth.
anybody have any ideas?
I'll post pics in a few...................
Race Director
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Are they spherical joints as in a milled down metal ball in a metal sleeve or a johnny bushing, a metal ball in a urethan or teflon sleeve? Why not use them, those things are THE answer to bind free trailing arm bushings, so much better than the stock deal.
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; Sep 14, 2006 at 02:19 PM.
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From: WI
Race Director
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you are missing the point, poly does not like the side loading that happens there, that bushing does not just rotate, as the suspension moves the toe changes and this results in that bushing deflecting, the above being a spherica bearing it will not bind like a urethane bushing (a rubber one has sufficient " give" but offer butter smooth bind free movement of the trailing arm. Why do you think redvetracr is interested? He knows what is good stuff and what's not..I'm willing to bet he doesn't have poly bushigns in that spot.
Le Mans Master
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From: Orlando Florida
St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo
you are missing the point, poly does not like the side loading that happens there, that bushing does not just rotate, as the suspension moves the toe changes and this results in that bushing deflecting, the above being a spherica bearing it will not bind like a urethane bushing (a rubber one has sufficient " give" but offer butter smooth bind free movement of the trailing arm. Why do you think redvetracr is interested? He knows what is good stuff and what's not..I'm willing to bet he doesn't have poly bushigns in that spot.
With 'smart struts' or lowered strut rod bracket the trailing arm rotation and camber change should be eliminated, at least minimized...... then poly is ok.... correct ???
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not camber, TOE. Toe is the result of the triangular arrangement that the trailing arm, hub, halfshaft/strut rod and the frame attaching points and tghe stub axles make. As the suspension moves the angle that the trailing arm makes with the car axis changes, this is the toe. The toe is at it's largest when the halfshaft is parallel with the ground and less in all other positions above or below that. Now think this through with a rigid bushing in the front like a poly bushing.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Orlando Florida
St. Jude Donor '05
I'm having a hard time seeing how the toe is changing during susp. travel.... with the stock strut rods yes, the camber and toe changes but if you lower the strut rods so that they're parallel with the half shafts the camber and toe shouldn't change ??? what am I missing ?
Race Director
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it has nothing to do with strut rods being parallel, it has everything to do with the halfshaft angle. Do you know how vectors work? A vector has 3 components, but we'll only look in a 2D situation so it has 2. A horizontal and a vertical component. The 2 components are changing as the vector angle chagned but the vector length always remains the same. So, now the halfshaft is sort of a vector. It has it's largest horizontal vector component when it's parallel to the ground (being the full halfshaft length), the vertical component is 0 in that case. In ANY other suspension position the horizontal component is less than max (halfshaft length). This is the angular effect of the suspension movement. Now, the trailing arm angle with the car axis (the toe) is dependant on the horizontal halfshaft componenet. As this changes so does the TOE and the bushing deflects.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Orlando Florida
St. Jude Donor '05
Makes more sense now..... 
What about upper strut rods ? I was planning on installing these and lower the lower strut rods. The clips that hold the side yokes are already gone so my yokes move in/out as the suspension moves...
Does the toe still change with the sliding half shafts/yokes ??
What about upper strut rods ? I was planning on installing these and lower the lower strut rods. The clips that hold the side yokes are already gone so my yokes move in/out as the suspension moves...
Does the toe still change with the sliding half shafts/yokes ??
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those struts all control camber, none of them control toe, that's only done by the trailing arm and halfshaft. If your yokes/halfshafts slide then yes, the toe changes..and thats NOT a good thing.
Here's a little drawing, see the dotted lines? The angle of the trailing arm is the toe. This is seen direct from above, now imagine the suspension moving...the halfshaft will get " shorter" in this view as it angles down or up. The hub will get " closer' to the differential in the horizontal plane and the angle of the trailing arm becomes less.
The ONLY way to fix this is to use tierh double a arms or a 5 bar/c4 type suspension with sectioned trailing rods (you'll need 2 to make up a rifid arm that controls bearing hub yaw/roll and they can be set up to have a virtual swing arm length by their virtual intersecting point), this way the trailing rods only position the wheel fore/aft and do not control toe as they have 2 gine points (where the trailing arm only has 1 and is rigidly attached to the bearing block), then you'll need a toe control setup or 2 lower camber rods w/ toe control set by the relative settings of these 2 (per side) that's how guldstrand did it.
Here's a little drawing, see the dotted lines? The angle of the trailing arm is the toe. This is seen direct from above, now imagine the suspension moving...the halfshaft will get " shorter" in this view as it angles down or up. The hub will get " closer' to the differential in the horizontal plane and the angle of the trailing arm becomes less.
The ONLY way to fix this is to use tierh double a arms or a 5 bar/c4 type suspension with sectioned trailing rods (you'll need 2 to make up a rifid arm that controls bearing hub yaw/roll and they can be set up to have a virtual swing arm length by their virtual intersecting point), this way the trailing rods only position the wheel fore/aft and do not control toe as they have 2 gine points (where the trailing arm only has 1 and is rigidly attached to the bearing block), then you'll need a toe control setup or 2 lower camber rods w/ toe control set by the relative settings of these 2 (per side) that's how guldstrand did it.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Galloway Twp. NJ
Cruise-In VII Veteran
that's the reason I bought them for my '77, back then, I was trying to improve the performance of the car, I also installed a VB&P front transverse leaf spring kit on it, with their upper control arms, my priorities were different then, the '77 was my daily driver and I wanted it to handle as best it could.
now for the '73, I'm not sure if it's worth me using them on a car that's not going to be driven much. plus I have the '98 for performance and handling!
now for the '73, I'm not sure if it's worth me using them on a car that's not going to be driven much. plus I have the '98 for performance and handling!
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Originally Posted by RedBad1979
With 'smart struts' or lowered strut rod bracket the trailing arm rotation and camber change should be eliminated, at least minimized...... then poly is ok.... correct ???
Twin turbo address this with his new free floating hubs
Le Mans Master
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From: Orlando Florida
St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by norvalwilhelm
I have smart struts both top and bottom or better known as a 6 link and I did alot of testing for TOE and it was terrible. While camber stays the same the toe change is rediculous.
Twin turbo address this with his new free floating hubs
Twin turbo address this with his new free floating hubs
TT and I had a few PMs about the toe... now it's crystal clear :o
I'll still go ahead and install my upper strut rods and copy Brutus' "poor man's 6-link". I'll have to live with the toe change but I don't race the car so I guess I'll be fine
Race Director
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Originally Posted by RedBad1979
TT and I had a few PMs about the toe... now it's crystal clear :o
I'll still go ahead and install my upper strut rods and copy Brutus' "poor man's 6-link". I'll have to live with the toe change but I don't race the car so I guess I'll be fine
I'll still go ahead and install my upper strut rods and copy Brutus' "poor man's 6-link". I'll have to live with the toe change but I don't race the car so I guess I'll be fine
The 1/2 shafts are no longer part of the suspension and only transmit power.
Finally with the upper rod in place the side loading or twisting motion on the trail arm is gone. The upper and lower strut rod take all the twist out of the trailing arm and this really is important with coilovers that would normally load the trailing arm on one side only.
Brutus did a great job but BUT the upper strut rod is attached to a bracket that is bolted to the rearend cover that is bolted to the cross member.
Why make the bracket in the first place just to bolt it to something that is bolted to something else.
Why not just put a stud directly on the crossmember and slip the rod end over this to make a more rigid inner mount???
This method is alot simpler, more rigid and easy to do.
Weld a stud on the crossmember and forget an elaborate bracket.
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Make damn sure your upper rods are compliant with the lowers AND the halfshaft when it comes to geometry, hinge points and sharing the same instantaneous center. If you don't do this your stub axle may move in and out of the diff an excessive amount. Get it spot on and it won't move at all.
Norval, do you have everything parallel, no camber change?? Do the rod ends and u joints all line up? (as in draw a line through the outer 2 rod ends and it should intersect the hub side u joint, same for the inboard set)???
Norval, do you have everything parallel, no camber change?? Do the rod ends and u joints all line up? (as in draw a line through the outer 2 rod ends and it should intersect the hub side u joint, same for the inboard set)???