Brain storming
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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Brain storming
Let us say that I want a Hydraulic roller cam that will simulate an LT1 solid cam (242/254 116LSA). This will all go in a 383 so the duration will probably have to be longer. Again this needs to operate the brakes. Again Hydraulic Roller, and lift cannot exceed .540.
I have 190cc heads, a single plane intake and a 750cfm carb.
Compression and camshaft are negotiable.
Ready Team Go.
Why you might ask? I am just weird.
I have 190cc heads, a single plane intake and a 750cfm carb.
Compression and camshaft are negotiable.
Ready Team Go.
Why you might ask? I am just weird.
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From: San Diego - Deep Within The State of CONFUSION!
Just wierd 
Don't try to match an old cam with old technology. Go with new grinds with new technology.
I'm using a Crane 270H - but with 6" rods and 1.6 roller rockers. My stroker has plenty of torque and yet idles very smoothe.
Don't try to match an old cam with old technology. Go with new grinds with new technology.
I'm using a Crane 270H - but with 6" rods and 1.6 roller rockers. My stroker has plenty of torque and yet idles very smoothe.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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I just want it too behave that way, I wish to take advantage fully of new ramps and such.
I want as much RPM as a 383 can take in a Hyd-roller cam and still make my brakes work. I figured that it was somewhere around 6200 rpm and there is a good model to follow being the LT1 which had a really wide lobe seperation concievably to keep vacuum up.
I want as much RPM as a 383 can take in a Hyd-roller cam and still make my brakes work. I figured that it was somewhere around 6200 rpm and there is a good model to follow being the LT1 which had a really wide lobe seperation concievably to keep vacuum up.
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The cam companies will grind any cam they have with a wide LSA.
Heres a crane Hydraulic roller with a power range that starts up high
like the LT1 solid.
Power Max # 119681
.860 base circle for stroker clerance
power range 3400-7200
LSA 114
.050 int. dur. 240
.050 ex. dur. 248
lift int. 558
lift ex. 558
Heres a crane Hydraulic roller with a power range that starts up high
like the LT1 solid.
Power Max # 119681
.860 base circle for stroker clerance
power range 3400-7200
LSA 114
.050 int. dur. 240
.050 ex. dur. 248
lift int. 558
lift ex. 558
Last edited by Little Mouse; Jan 10, 2007 at 04:20 AM.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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How wide of an LSA do you guys think I need?
114 or 116? The increased displacement will probably smooth it out right? Does the wider LSA increase vacuum at idle so one can use the brakes?
114 or 116? The increased displacement will probably smooth it out right? Does the wider LSA increase vacuum at idle so one can use the brakes?
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I would not go with as much duration as the crane cam with any form
of hydraulic cam, with that much duration I would use a solid flat
tappit or roller. A cam with a 112 LSA would be plenty for good vacuum.
How about a hydraulic roller more like this one
2600-6600 rpm range
.050 int. 230
.050 ex. 238
LSA 112
int. lift 539
ex. lift 558
of hydraulic cam, with that much duration I would use a solid flat
tappit or roller. A cam with a 112 LSA would be plenty for good vacuum.
How about a hydraulic roller more like this one
2600-6600 rpm range
.050 int. 230
.050 ex. 238
LSA 112
int. lift 539
ex. lift 558
Last edited by Little Mouse; Jan 10, 2007 at 05:05 PM.
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From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
The cam companies will grind any cam they have with a wide LSA.
Heres a crane Hydraulic roller with a power range that starts up high
like the LT1 solid.
Power Max # 119681
.860 base circle for stroker clerance
power range 3400-7200
LSA 114
.050 int. dur. 240
.050 ex. dur. 248
lift int. 558
lift ex. 558
Heres a crane Hydraulic roller with a power range that starts up high
like the LT1 solid.
Power Max # 119681
.860 base circle for stroker clerance
power range 3400-7200
LSA 114
.050 int. dur. 240
.050 ex. dur. 248
lift int. 558
lift ex. 558
You can't really compare tiny lobe 35+ year old solid cams or even H-flat cams to the amount of flow induced by roller cam lobes.
Yes, I always had good brakes and the lights pop up.
Team Owner
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Posts: 65,492
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From: Orange Park Florida
Are not most modern cams designed for DPFI, so fuel suspension in the runners is not an issue??? so therefore running a 'modern' cam with a carb MAY be an issue, frankly I dunno....so am curious what the smart folks say....
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Le Mans Master
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I used this above cam in the solid version with 1.65 rockers and my Dart 227 cc heads and it was kind of nothing till 3000 rpm But from 5000 - 7500 it really came on hard. If I raised my redline to 8000 it would have done it. It was to much cam even for my 11.2 compression. I then toned it down to a 236/242 112
You can't really compare tiny lobe 35+ year old solid cams or even H-flat cams to the amount of flow induced by roller cam lobes.
Yes, I always had good brakes and the lights pop up.
You can't really compare tiny lobe 35+ year old solid cams or even H-flat cams to the amount of flow induced by roller cam lobes.
Yes, I always had good brakes and the lights pop up.
considering, the ones with the runner barely raised or the
higher raised runner ??
Team Owner
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From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I was looking at the 262 cc heads with the 2.170 intake valves spread port exhaust.
http://www.brodix.com/heads/-12.html
I might just stay with my Dart 227cc and get a sequential Kinsler 8 stack fuel injection. My 427 small block is ready to rock and roll. I just have to throw some heads on it and install it.
http://www.brodix.com/heads/-12.html
I might just stay with my Dart 227cc and get a sequential Kinsler 8 stack fuel injection. My 427 small block is ready to rock and roll. I just have to throw some heads on it and install it.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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Fuel injection requires a bunch of vacuum as well.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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OK since I cant compare a tiny solid cam to a Hyd. Roller cam.
I will redirect my efforts.
I have in my possession a 288(236)/300(249) with a 112 LSA.
I am liking the idea of a shorter .050 duration with the same length advertised duration.
I was thinking about the LT4 cam 282/277(203/210). I find this really short .050 duration with a long advertised duration interesting. Especially since they had a good RPM range.
The lesson we can take from Gen 3 small blocks is low duration low lift cams with large rocker ratios(1.7). An LS1 doesnt have any more duration than the LT4 did, but it has a lot more lift because of the larger rocker ratio. The LS6 has a duration of around 204/218 and a 117 LSA. But because unlike the LT4 they use high ratio roller trunion rockers they have .550+ lift. So a GM vehicle has a longer adv duration and a low .050 duration with a much higher ratio in their rockers to make decent power.
I figure if I am going to use modern Gen 3/4 small blocks as a guide. an LS2 makes 1.1 hp/ci and the LS7 makes 1.2 hp/ci.
So by this benchmark of performance for a motor to perform to a 383 should make 421-460hp. I would prefer closer to 460hp. Mind you I am still using ramhorns.
An LS7 has a 230/211 duration camshaft and .591 lift with 1.8 ratio rockers. What we can see here is also an interesting is that in an attempt to keep emmissions in check is the low exhaust duration.
203/3.48 = 58.3
204/3.622 = 56.3
230/4 = 57.5
So what I am seeing is that in Hi performance Stock small blocks is about 56-58 degrees per inch of stroke. So a 383 has a 3.75" stroke so a .050 duration of 218 and a seat to seat duration of around 298 is probably the ticket for the intake.
Comparing exhaust is also fun.
210/3.48 = 60.4
218/3.622 = 60.2
So a Hi-Po stock performing cam for a 383 should be around 227 at .050 perhaps with around 292 seat to seat.
Typically stock performing cams have around 115-117 LSA.
Somewhere in all this is ~460hp at the crank for a 383, and it should perform solidly and cruise nicely with a tall rearend and wide ratio tranny.
I am thinking 218/227(296/305) with a 116 LSA with about .330/.335 of tappet lift.
Just my thoughts.
I will redirect my efforts.
I have in my possession a 288(236)/300(249) with a 112 LSA.
I am liking the idea of a shorter .050 duration with the same length advertised duration.
I was thinking about the LT4 cam 282/277(203/210). I find this really short .050 duration with a long advertised duration interesting. Especially since they had a good RPM range.
The lesson we can take from Gen 3 small blocks is low duration low lift cams with large rocker ratios(1.7). An LS1 doesnt have any more duration than the LT4 did, but it has a lot more lift because of the larger rocker ratio. The LS6 has a duration of around 204/218 and a 117 LSA. But because unlike the LT4 they use high ratio roller trunion rockers they have .550+ lift. So a GM vehicle has a longer adv duration and a low .050 duration with a much higher ratio in their rockers to make decent power.
I figure if I am going to use modern Gen 3/4 small blocks as a guide. an LS2 makes 1.1 hp/ci and the LS7 makes 1.2 hp/ci.
So by this benchmark of performance for a motor to perform to a 383 should make 421-460hp. I would prefer closer to 460hp. Mind you I am still using ramhorns.
An LS7 has a 230/211 duration camshaft and .591 lift with 1.8 ratio rockers. What we can see here is also an interesting is that in an attempt to keep emmissions in check is the low exhaust duration.
203/3.48 = 58.3
204/3.622 = 56.3
230/4 = 57.5
So what I am seeing is that in Hi performance Stock small blocks is about 56-58 degrees per inch of stroke. So a 383 has a 3.75" stroke so a .050 duration of 218 and a seat to seat duration of around 298 is probably the ticket for the intake.
Comparing exhaust is also fun.
210/3.48 = 60.4
218/3.622 = 60.2
So a Hi-Po stock performing cam for a 383 should be around 227 at .050 perhaps with around 292 seat to seat.
Typically stock performing cams have around 115-117 LSA.
Somewhere in all this is ~460hp at the crank for a 383, and it should perform solidly and cruise nicely with a tall rearend and wide ratio tranny.
I am thinking 218/227(296/305) with a 116 LSA with about .330/.335 of tappet lift.
Just my thoughts.
Last edited by Guru_4_hire; Jan 10, 2007 at 07:57 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
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I was looking at the 262 cc heads with the 2.170 intake valves spread port exhaust.
http://www.brodix.com/heads/-12.html
I might just stay with my Dart 227cc and get a sequential Kinsler 8 stack fuel injection. My 427 small block is ready to rock and roll. I just have to throw some heads on it and install it.
http://www.brodix.com/heads/-12.html
I might just stay with my Dart 227cc and get a sequential Kinsler 8 stack fuel injection. My 427 small block is ready to rock and roll. I just have to throw some heads on it and install it.
it would be pricey.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
OK since I cant compare a tiny solid cam to a Hyd. Roller cam.
I will redirect my efforts.
I have in my possession a 288(236)/300(249) with a 112 LSA.
I am liking the idea of a shorter .050 duration with the same length advertised duration.
I was thinking about the LT4 cam 282/277(203/210). I find this really short .050 duration with a long advertised duration interesting. Especially since they had a good RPM range. So I am thinking a 288/294(222/228 or so) cam with a 116 LSA 112 Intake centerline would probably be a good a compromise as is possible.
The lesson we can take from Gen 3 small blocks is low duration low lift cams with large rocker ratios(1.7). An LS1 doesnt have any more duration than the LT4 did, but it has a lot more lift because of the larger rocker ratio. The LS6 has a duration of around 204/218 and a 117 LSA. But because unlike the LT4 they use high ratio roller trunion rockers they have .550+ lift. So a GM vehicle has a longer adv duration and a low .050 duration with a much higher ratio in their rockers to make decent power.
I figure if I am going to use modern Gen 3/4 small blocks as a guide. an LS2 makes 1.1 hp/ci and the LS7 makes 1.2 hp/ci.
So by this benchmark of performance for a motor to perform to a 383 should make 421-460hp. I would prefer closer to 460hp. Mind you I am still using ramhorns.
An LS7 has a 230/211 duration camshaft and .591 lift with 1.8 ratio rockers. What we can see here is also an interesting is that in an attempt to keep emmissions in check is the low exhaust duration.
203/3.48 = 58.3
204/3.622 = 56.3
230/4 = 57.5
So what I am seeing is that in Hi performance Stock small blocks is about 56-58 degrees per inch of stroke. So a 383 has a 3.75" stroke so a .050 duration of 218 and a seat to seat duration of around 288 is probably the ticket for the intake.
Comparing exhaust is also fun.
210/3.48 = 60.4
218/3.622 = 60.2
So a Hi-Po stock performing cam for a 383 should be around 227 at .050 perhaps with around 292 seat to seat.
Typically stock performing cams have around 115-117 LSA.
Somewhere in all this is ~460hp at the crank for a 383, and it should perform solidly and cruise nicely with a tall rearend and wide ratio tranny.
Just my thoughts.
I will redirect my efforts.
I have in my possession a 288(236)/300(249) with a 112 LSA.
I am liking the idea of a shorter .050 duration with the same length advertised duration.
I was thinking about the LT4 cam 282/277(203/210). I find this really short .050 duration with a long advertised duration interesting. Especially since they had a good RPM range. So I am thinking a 288/294(222/228 or so) cam with a 116 LSA 112 Intake centerline would probably be a good a compromise as is possible.
The lesson we can take from Gen 3 small blocks is low duration low lift cams with large rocker ratios(1.7). An LS1 doesnt have any more duration than the LT4 did, but it has a lot more lift because of the larger rocker ratio. The LS6 has a duration of around 204/218 and a 117 LSA. But because unlike the LT4 they use high ratio roller trunion rockers they have .550+ lift. So a GM vehicle has a longer adv duration and a low .050 duration with a much higher ratio in their rockers to make decent power.
I figure if I am going to use modern Gen 3/4 small blocks as a guide. an LS2 makes 1.1 hp/ci and the LS7 makes 1.2 hp/ci.
So by this benchmark of performance for a motor to perform to a 383 should make 421-460hp. I would prefer closer to 460hp. Mind you I am still using ramhorns.
An LS7 has a 230/211 duration camshaft and .591 lift with 1.8 ratio rockers. What we can see here is also an interesting is that in an attempt to keep emmissions in check is the low exhaust duration.
203/3.48 = 58.3
204/3.622 = 56.3
230/4 = 57.5
So what I am seeing is that in Hi performance Stock small blocks is about 56-58 degrees per inch of stroke. So a 383 has a 3.75" stroke so a .050 duration of 218 and a seat to seat duration of around 288 is probably the ticket for the intake.
Comparing exhaust is also fun.
210/3.48 = 60.4
218/3.622 = 60.2
So a Hi-Po stock performing cam for a 383 should be around 227 at .050 perhaps with around 292 seat to seat.
Typically stock performing cams have around 115-117 LSA.
Somewhere in all this is ~460hp at the crank for a 383, and it should perform solidly and cruise nicely with a tall rearend and wide ratio tranny.
Just my thoughts.
The mild 327/300 hp cams used 112. A cam with 230 .050 int dur.
will still give good torque and strong mid range in a 383, if you want
just low end torque in the 383 use a 220 duration .050. the 204
.050 Lt4 cam way to small for a 383. Just my 02 I'm outa here.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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My radical old factory solid cam in my 302 only had a 114 LSA
The mild 327/300 hp cams used 112. A cam with 230 .050 int dur.
will still give good torque and strong mid range in a 383, if you want
just low end torque in the 383 use a 220 duration .050. the 204
.050 Lt4 cam way to small for a 383. Just my 02 I'm outa here.
The mild 327/300 hp cams used 112. A cam with 230 .050 int dur.
will still give good torque and strong mid range in a 383, if you want
just low end torque in the 383 use a 220 duration .050. the 204
.050 Lt4 cam way to small for a 383. Just my 02 I'm outa here.
Anyway. I think to make a stock performing 383 I would need a 298/305 seat to seat cam with 218/227 duration at .05 with a lift of .33/.335 at the tappet. That would be .561/.5695 with 1.7 ratio lifters.
Some shaft 1.7 ratio rockers and we are rockin and rollin.
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
The NEW LS engines use a wide LSA to get the dynamic compression high. Then they have computer controlled timing and A/F adjust with knock sensors to avoid detonation. They pull maximum timing thoughout the RPM range just short of detonation and perfect A/F ratios to pull the power they do and still get 20+ MPG If you take a stock LS 7 and could run a carb and points distributor it would self destruct from detonation. Just some of my rambling thoughts.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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Nobody makes lobes like I want. Poo.
I think there is a difference in designing a hotrod that ends up getting rebuilt every couple of years, race cars, and then design cars that are designed to be abused like no other(street cars).
So this leads me to where I am today. Our metalurgy and manufacturing is better.
The LS6 can is RADICAL. in its own special way.
Anyway
So I am just going to look for a 288/294 cam with the longest lead in. about a 116 LSA. I am working on the intake centerline.
I have determined that I want a street car that can race when I want it too.
You guys have 383s with 500hp. But a 500hp 427 from the factory is still quite a feat. I intend to work around the concepts of factory, with 460hp at the crank and be able to cruise all day long at 1600 rpm. But still have the ability to utilize the high RPMs. It is an interesting trade off.
I think there is a difference in designing a hotrod that ends up getting rebuilt every couple of years, race cars, and then design cars that are designed to be abused like no other(street cars).
So this leads me to where I am today. Our metalurgy and manufacturing is better.
The LS6 can is RADICAL. in its own special way.
Anyway
So I am just going to look for a 288/294 cam with the longest lead in. about a 116 LSA. I am working on the intake centerline.
I have determined that I want a street car that can race when I want it too.
You guys have 383s with 500hp. But a 500hp 427 from the factory is still quite a feat. I intend to work around the concepts of factory, with 460hp at the crank and be able to cruise all day long at 1600 rpm. But still have the ability to utilize the high RPMs. It is an interesting trade off.