front spindles bad?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 228
Likes: 3
From: Tampa FL
front spindles bad?
How do I know if my front spindles are bad?
I replaced my front wheel bearings about 4000 miles ago with Timken (Poland). One side was loose after a few hundred miles. Now both sides had excessive play. I could turn the spindle nut (both sides same) almost a whole turn tighter by hand after removing the cotter pins. This is after about 4000 miles and 1 autocross. The autocross really made the difference. Could feel additional play in the steering and brakes starting feeling really funky (excess runout causing pads to seperate).
There are some marks on the spindles where the inner and outer bearing races sit. Could the marks be from the bearings being too loose, or could the bearings be wearing because the spindles are worn?
The bearings are not making any noise and the races don't show any marks on the bearing surfaces.
I replaced my front wheel bearings about 4000 miles ago with Timken (Poland). One side was loose after a few hundred miles. Now both sides had excessive play. I could turn the spindle nut (both sides same) almost a whole turn tighter by hand after removing the cotter pins. This is after about 4000 miles and 1 autocross. The autocross really made the difference. Could feel additional play in the steering and brakes starting feeling really funky (excess runout causing pads to seperate).
There are some marks on the spindles where the inner and outer bearing races sit. Could the marks be from the bearings being too loose, or could the bearings be wearing because the spindles are worn?
The bearings are not making any noise and the races don't show any marks on the bearing surfaces.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 417
Likes: 40
From: Swansea IL
Pre-Load
How are you setting the pre-load on the wheel bearings? Take a look at the service manual and follow the instructions for installation.
You have to pre-load the bearings to ensure that the free play is at a min. Typically, that involves tightening the bearings, rotating the tire and wheel, then tightening a certain degree again.
Check the SM for details.
Timken bearings are usually considered a premium product.
Bob
You have to pre-load the bearings to ensure that the free play is at a min. Typically, that involves tightening the bearings, rotating the tire and wheel, then tightening a certain degree again.
Check the SM for details.
Timken bearings are usually considered a premium product.
Bob
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,838
Likes: 10
From: Austin TX
Assuming the spindles are straight and true, I doubt they'd be a problem since the bearings ride on races,..not the spindles.
For pre-load of the wheel bearings, service manual says hand tighten,..turn the wheel (or rotor) a rotation,..hand tighten again, then loosen the castle nut until your cotter pin holes line up.
How much play do you have,..how are you measuring it?
For pre-load of the wheel bearings, service manual says hand tighten,..turn the wheel (or rotor) a rotation,..hand tighten again, then loosen the castle nut until your cotter pin holes line up.
How much play do you have,..how are you measuring it?
Last edited by 73, Dark Blue 454; Jan 22, 2007 at 02:39 PM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 228
Likes: 3
From: Tampa FL
If I remember correctly, I torqued to 15 ft lbs then backed off to hand tight.
I think that perhaps, I didn't hammer the new races in all the way, when I replaced the bearings. The autocross probably seated them better. I am going to re-pack (mobile 1 syn) and re-assemble then keep a close eye on them.
I think that perhaps, I didn't hammer the new races in all the way, when I replaced the bearings. The autocross probably seated them better. I am going to re-pack (mobile 1 syn) and re-assemble then keep a close eye on them.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,192
Likes: 27
From: Boca Raton Florida
I think your right about not getting the races all the way in, everything else being done right thats about the only thing it could be. When you seat the races you have to look carefully and make sure the back of the race is all the wai in to the shoulder on the race bore. If they are not dammaged, go ahead and seat them and run them, they should be ok, Usually they will break an inner race on the outter bearing..
I wrote a paper on this if you want it, I'll see if I can attach
OK, that don't work. I'll email if you want it
The spec should be .001 to .002 for end play
I wrote a paper on this if you want it, I'll see if I can attach
OK, that don't work. I'll email if you want it
The spec should be .001 to .002 for end play
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 8
From: Hamilton NJ
Folks,
To build on what's been discussed...
I tore into one of my rotors last night in prep for replacing the bearings. A couple of questions...what is end play and how do you measure it? The races look good, as do the current bearings. Can I just swap out the bearings and leave the existing races in place to avoid the problem decribed above or is it best to change them as a set.
Thanks, Steve
To build on what's been discussed...
I tore into one of my rotors last night in prep for replacing the bearings. A couple of questions...what is end play and how do you measure it? The races look good, as do the current bearings. Can I just swap out the bearings and leave the existing races in place to avoid the problem decribed above or is it best to change them as a set.
Thanks, Steve
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,560
Likes: 439
From: Wellington, FL
St. Jude Donor '11 thru '25
Folks,
To build on what's been discussed...
I tore into one of my rotors last night in prep for replacing the bearings. A couple of questions...what is end play and how do you measure it? The races look good, as do the current bearings. Can I just swap out the bearings and leave the existing races in place to avoid the problem decribed above or is it best to change them as a set.
Thanks, Steve
To build on what's been discussed...
I tore into one of my rotors last night in prep for replacing the bearings. A couple of questions...what is end play and how do you measure it? The races look good, as do the current bearings. Can I just swap out the bearings and leave the existing races in place to avoid the problem decribed above or is it best to change them as a set.
Thanks, Steve
Last edited by Jud Chapin; Jan 31, 2007 at 11:00 AM.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 7,739
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From: Unreconstructed, South Carolina
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,118
From: Crossville TN
I'm guessing that the spindles weren't perfectly clean when you replaced them the first time. The race probably wasn't fully seated and it worked down under use and got loose. You have to clean the surfaces completely and drive the race fully down before you pre-load the bearing. The bearings need to be packed with grease at installation also.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,192
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From: Boca Raton Florida
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 7,739
Likes: 630
From: Unreconstructed, South Carolina
I'm pleased you were successful. And No I don't really think they make each set custom; neither did I write or insinuate that. I will not recommend it on a DD or tempt fate on a DD ... maybe so on a race car away from shop ... but our ct cars run large bearings & are checked/replaced regular. I do know this: there's certain allowable tolerance within a specific lot/run/heat/batch but that tolerance may not be within acceptable limits across multiple lot/run/heat/batch. Dunno if you engineer within hi-volume manufacturing; if so, maybe you deal w/ such lot-to-lot variance also? I have "some" experience w/ this sorta stuff: I've personally hand-lapped straight roller bearing races & fit individual rollers in old HD motors & trans (old as in pre-tapered bearing driveline) ... that WAS only way to rebuild their crank & rod pins and trans shafts ... and have spent a "few" years leading-teaching GD&T and GageR&R in HV Tier 1 mfg's APQP design-startup-serial production.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
I'm pleased you were successful. And No I don't really think they make each set custom; neither did I write or insinuate that. I will not recommend it on a DD or tempt fate on a DD ... maybe so on a race car away from shop ... but our ct cars run large bearings & are checked/replaced regular. I do know this: there's certain allowable tolerance within a specific lot/run/heat/batch but that tolerance may not be within acceptable limits across multiple lot/run/heat/batch. Dunno if you engineer within hi-volume manufacturing; if so, maybe you deal w/ such lot-to-lot variance also? I have "some" experience w/ this sorta stuff: I've personally hand-lapped straight roller bearing races & fit individual rollers in old HD motors & trans (old as in pre-tapered bearing driveline) ... that WAS only way to rebuild their crank & rod pins and trans shafts ... and have spent a "few" years leading-teaching GD&T and GageR&R in HV Tier 1 mfg's APQP design-startup-serial production.
The thing is its a lot of trouble to bang out the races if they're still good.
To me its worth investigating. Its hard to believe there that much tolerace and that the bearings and races are lapped yada yada yada for a $12 bearing.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,192
Likes: 27
From: Boca Raton Florida
Turtle you may be right, but I figure I am changing a bearing its for a reason, otherwise why do it. If I was on the side of the road I would just swap in a new bearing and be on my way, but would do the whole thing as soon as I could. But I agree with you, doesn't seem to make that much sense that there is that much criticality in an inexpensive bearing