Cylinder head help please-Quick!
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 4
From: Somers CT
A little late her too but thought I'd pass this along:
I had trouble with 200cc heads matching my GM Aluminium intake, they're just too big for the intake and you can't make the ports line up. After some research and comments, people recommended 180cc's as a better match to my motor even for performance issues. I swapped them and I'm very happy. So before going too far down the road with whatever you choose, investigate the intake you're using fitting the runners properly.
Bill
I had trouble with 200cc heads matching my GM Aluminium intake, they're just too big for the intake and you can't make the ports line up. After some research and comments, people recommended 180cc's as a better match to my motor even for performance issues. I swapped them and I'm very happy. So before going too far down the road with whatever you choose, investigate the intake you're using fitting the runners properly.
Bill
Racer
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: IL
Please provide part# of RHS head, on their site the smallest head is a 180cc with 2.02/1.6 valve size. Or better yet, do you have data for head flow for those heads from them? If memory is right, these were the old Pro Line versions that they've taken over, very good, back a fews ago.
Now your cam, post the cam# and grind from card. The one I think you have is listed as an all around 8.8 -10.75 comp range. Good for NOS or blown application with an opperating range of 2600-3000 cruise range. Basically your dumping the "little" compression you have out the pipes with that 230° exh dur.
I think a call to a Cam Tech Hot Line with ALL your specs in hand would get you something with a little more torque the hi RPM power.
Later.
Now your cam, post the cam# and grind from card. The one I think you have is listed as an all around 8.8 -10.75 comp range. Good for NOS or blown application with an opperating range of 2600-3000 cruise range. Basically your dumping the "little" compression you have out the pipes with that 230° exh dur.
I think a call to a Cam Tech Hot Line with ALL your specs in hand would get you something with a little more torque the hi RPM power.
Later.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,342
Likes: 7
From: Connecticut
Please provide part# of RHS head, on their site the smallest head is a 180cc with 2.02/1.6 valve size. Or better yet, do you have data for head flow for those heads from them? If memory is right, these were the old Pro Line versions that they've taken over, very good, back a fews ago.
Now your cam, post the cam# and grind from card. The one I think you have is listed as an all around 8.8 -10.75 comp range. Good for NOS or blown application with an opperating range of 2600-3000 cruise range. Basically your dumping the "little" compression you have out the pipes with that 230° exh dur.
I think a call to a Cam Tech Hot Line with ALL your specs in hand would get you something with a little more torque the hi RPM power.
Later.
Now your cam, post the cam# and grind from card. The one I think you have is listed as an all around 8.8 -10.75 comp range. Good for NOS or blown application with an opperating range of 2600-3000 cruise range. Basically your dumping the "little" compression you have out the pipes with that 230° exh dur.
I think a call to a Cam Tech Hot Line with ALL your specs in hand would get you something with a little more torque the hi RPM power.
Later.
RHS Pro Torker #12402 4th up from the bottom of the page (get your magnifying glass out)
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Cat...RHS5-101-1.gif
I have no card from the camshaft but it's a Crane Z cam ("Quick-Lift" technology..... whatever that means.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...ew=1&N=700+150
Please tell me if you think these components are seriously mis-matched for my application
If so, I will at least have some information to discuss with the engine builder that did the work.
Obviously we are not on the best of terms seeing the money I spent VS the performance I got.
Thanks very much.
Bob
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,716
Likes: 4
From: New Baden Illinois
Here is the info from the cam card:
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...21&lvl=2&prt=5
I would not necessarily say that it is a mismatch. However, those heads do not seem to be much more than stock replacements, such as the WP S/R or a Dart S/R. The heads may be your restriction. They should still be a little better than the smog heads.
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...21&lvl=2&prt=5
I would not necessarily say that it is a mismatch. However, those heads do not seem to be much more than stock replacements, such as the WP S/R or a Dart S/R. The heads may be your restriction. They should still be a little better than the smog heads.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: IL
Edit: - That's one of the cam#'s I came up with as well. -
Well, if your old heads were damaged or needed to much work these heads are good replacements. But not really a performance head, so your basically back to stock. Looking quickly, I didn't see any flow #'s to rate them though.
That cam is just not for your application. You'll want to change this out along with the match set of valve springs and hardware for the new cam. Talk with Tech guy and get something with good torque #'s with power up to 5g's. I can promise you, it'll be a whole new car again.
Also, are you comparing your late model F.I. car's throttle response to your Vette? Those are all torque off the line, while running out of power up top, but yet get better gas milage. Just something to think about.
When you put it all back together, don't forget to use the diesel rated oils instead of "W-mart" 10-30 oil. The API ratings of the latest oils do not have the anti-wear additives that older engines need. Many posts about this so check those if your not aware of this. New cams are wiped in very little hours/miles if this is not addressed. Comp finally has the warning posted on their site.
Knew about this back in the late '90's, even bike manufactures (BMW, H.D., Kaw, Yam, Duk, etc.) were not warranting because of this same issue.
Later.
Well, if your old heads were damaged or needed to much work these heads are good replacements. But not really a performance head, so your basically back to stock. Looking quickly, I didn't see any flow #'s to rate them though.
That cam is just not for your application. You'll want to change this out along with the match set of valve springs and hardware for the new cam. Talk with Tech guy and get something with good torque #'s with power up to 5g's. I can promise you, it'll be a whole new car again.
Also, are you comparing your late model F.I. car's throttle response to your Vette? Those are all torque off the line, while running out of power up top, but yet get better gas milage. Just something to think about.
When you put it all back together, don't forget to use the diesel rated oils instead of "W-mart" 10-30 oil. The API ratings of the latest oils do not have the anti-wear additives that older engines need. Many posts about this so check those if your not aware of this. New cams are wiped in very little hours/miles if this is not addressed. Comp finally has the warning posted on their site.
Knew about this back in the late '90's, even bike manufactures (BMW, H.D., Kaw, Yam, Duk, etc.) were not warranting because of this same issue.
Later.
Last edited by GasketDude; Aug 10, 2007 at 03:19 PM.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,342
Likes: 7
From: Connecticut
Edit: - That's one of the cam#'s I came up with as well. -
Well, if your old heads were damaged or needed to much work these heads are good replacements. But not really a performance head, so your basically back to stock. Looking quickly, I didn't see any flow #'s to rate them though. The old heads had bad guide seals... thats all.
That cam is just not for your application. You'll want to change this out along with the match set of valve springs and hardware for the new cam. Talk with Tech guy and get something with good torque #'s with power up to 5g's. I can promise you, it'll be a whole new car again.
This whole setup was recommended and built by a local builder who told me I would gain about 100 HP. The work was done last October and I have driven it about 1000 miles. Obviouslly I am not on good terms with the builder.
Also, are you comparing your late model F.I. car's throttle response to your Vette? Those are all torque off the line, while running out of power up top, but yet get better gas milage. Just something to think about.No, I am comparing it with my 1970 El Camino 454 LS-5
When you put it all back together,The engine is not taken apart, it has not been touched since the work was done don't forget to use the diesel rated oils instead of "W-mart" 10-30 oil. The API ratings of the latest oils do not have the anti-wear additives that older engines need. Many posts about this so check those if your not aware of this. New cams are wiped in very little hours/miles if this is not addressed. Comp finally has the warning posted on their site.
Knew about this back in the late '90's, even bike manufactures (BMW, H.D., Kaw, Yam, Duk, etc.) were not warranting because of this same issue.
Later.
Well, if your old heads were damaged or needed to much work these heads are good replacements. But not really a performance head, so your basically back to stock. Looking quickly, I didn't see any flow #'s to rate them though. The old heads had bad guide seals... thats all.
That cam is just not for your application. You'll want to change this out along with the match set of valve springs and hardware for the new cam. Talk with Tech guy and get something with good torque #'s with power up to 5g's. I can promise you, it'll be a whole new car again.
This whole setup was recommended and built by a local builder who told me I would gain about 100 HP. The work was done last October and I have driven it about 1000 miles. Obviouslly I am not on good terms with the builder.
Also, are you comparing your late model F.I. car's throttle response to your Vette? Those are all torque off the line, while running out of power up top, but yet get better gas milage. Just something to think about.No, I am comparing it with my 1970 El Camino 454 LS-5
When you put it all back together,The engine is not taken apart, it has not been touched since the work was done don't forget to use the diesel rated oils instead of "W-mart" 10-30 oil. The API ratings of the latest oils do not have the anti-wear additives that older engines need. Many posts about this so check those if your not aware of this. New cams are wiped in very little hours/miles if this is not addressed. Comp finally has the warning posted on their site.
Knew about this back in the late '90's, even bike manufactures (BMW, H.D., Kaw, Yam, Duk, etc.) were not warranting because of this same issue.
Later.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
The Torkers appear to be a Vortec design retrofitted to a standard manifold - they don't include any flow numbers that I could find on the website, but I really didn't see any mismatch here. If they flow as well as the stock GMPP Vortecs, then they're good up to about .500 lift )although the GMPP stockers are lift-limited to .475). IMHO, the Vortecs are some of the best street heads around up to about 1.2 HP/CID. I have not used these RHS heads personally.
IMHO these are great heads and the cam lift is pretty well-matched to the head flow. I expect the duration is the source of the dissatisfaction - that's a bit much for a mild street engine and really made for 3000 RPM cruise vs. low-end "grunt" - hence the "marine" qualification.
I DD'd the engine with that cam - based on the stock Vortec flow numbers - and came up with a very narrow HP and TQ range - the TQ doesn't pick up until 2000 RPM and peaks at 3500-4000 RPM. The HP peak is at 5500 RPM.
If you're looking for a "grunt" daily driver, then it might be worth looking at a cam change...but IMHO I'd invest in a dyno tune before making any changes.
IMHO these are great heads and the cam lift is pretty well-matched to the head flow. I expect the duration is the source of the dissatisfaction - that's a bit much for a mild street engine and really made for 3000 RPM cruise vs. low-end "grunt" - hence the "marine" qualification.
I DD'd the engine with that cam - based on the stock Vortec flow numbers - and came up with a very narrow HP and TQ range - the TQ doesn't pick up until 2000 RPM and peaks at 3500-4000 RPM. The HP peak is at 5500 RPM.
If you're looking for a "grunt" daily driver, then it might be worth looking at a cam change...but IMHO I'd invest in a dyno tune before making any changes.
Last edited by billla; Aug 10, 2007 at 03:49 PM.
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Drifting
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,716
Likes: 4
From: New Baden Illinois
Billa,
What makes you think that it is a Vortec design? It does not appear to have the Vortec design, nor does RHS tout is as such. Their description appears to match a stock replacement. They even say that it is only good up to 350ci, meaning that it is at its max. A Vortec can breathe sufficiently on a 383.
I agree that if it was a Vortec, it would be a great head.
What makes you think that it is a Vortec design? It does not appear to have the Vortec design, nor does RHS tout is as such. Their description appears to match a stock replacement. They even say that it is only good up to 350ci, meaning that it is at its max. A Vortec can breathe sufficiently on a 383.
I agree that if it was a Vortec, it would be a great head.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: IL
Rip it out now (cam), change to the #1094 FP head gasket shim, and call it a day. Or shave the heads to get you up to 9-9.5:1 with your stock pistons. With the stuff you already have you'll be leavin black burnout marks down your road by weekends end.
Like I mentioned above, the only mismatch is the cam to application.
The Pro Torker is listed as a Vortec, and these have better then "stock" flow numbers. On RHS's site their Vortec are 27cc better at max .500" lift. Which we assume is their max lift for this head, but it's not listed in the product tech page (GM V's are .470"). They do mention they're designed not to have clearance issues with high lift cams.
I wouldn't waste my money on a dyno tune right now.
Like I mentioned above, the only mismatch is the cam to application.
The Pro Torker is listed as a Vortec, and these have better then "stock" flow numbers. On RHS's site their Vortec are 27cc better at max .500" lift. Which we assume is their max lift for this head, but it's not listed in the product tech page (GM V's are .470"). They do mention they're designed not to have clearance issues with high lift cams.
I wouldn't waste my money on a dyno tune right now.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,342
Likes: 7
From: Connecticut
Rip it out now (cam), change to the #1094 FP head gasket shim, and call it a day. Or shave the heads to get you up to 9-9.5:1 with your stock pistons. With the stuff you already have you'll be leavin black burnout marks down your road by weekends end.
Like I mentioned above, the only mismatch is the cam to application.
The Pro Torker is listed as a Vortec, and these have better then "stock" flow numbers. On RHS's site their Vortec are 27cc better at max .500" lift. Which we assume is their max lift for this head, but it's not listed in the product tech page (GM V's are .470"). They do mention they're designed not to have clearance issues with high lift cams.
I wouldn't waste my money on a dyno tune right now.
Like I mentioned above, the only mismatch is the cam to application.
The Pro Torker is listed as a Vortec, and these have better then "stock" flow numbers. On RHS's site their Vortec are 27cc better at max .500" lift. Which we assume is their max lift for this head, but it's not listed in the product tech page (GM V's are .470"). They do mention they're designed not to have clearance issues with high lift cams.
I wouldn't waste my money on a dyno tune right now.
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Inf...rtec-Heads.asp
Last edited by Bob Onit; Aug 10, 2007 at 05:00 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,716
Likes: 4
From: New Baden Illinois
Here is the info on the Pro Torker. Scroll to the bottom.
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Inf...rtec-Heads.asp
Only the 64cc is available in the Vortec design. The part number that he has is the early style with OEM size runners.
Edit - Bob Onit already beat me to it.
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Inf...rtec-Heads.asp
Only the 64cc is available in the Vortec design. The part number that he has is the early style with OEM size runners.
Edit - Bob Onit already beat me to it.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,342
Likes: 7
From: Connecticut
The RHS Vortec heads do seem like a very good bolt on solution for many as they don't require a Vortec style intake manifold
Thats the only good news in this thread
" Pro Torker™ Vortec heads come standard with radiused, hardened exhaust seats, multi-angled intake seats, and “Fast Burn” 64cc or 67cc combustion chambers. To ensure maximum versatility, Pro Torker™ Vortec heads feature dual pattern intake compatibility to allow use with virtually any intake manifold, early or late."
Thats the only good news in this thread
" Pro Torker™ Vortec heads come standard with radiused, hardened exhaust seats, multi-angled intake seats, and “Fast Burn” 64cc or 67cc combustion chambers. To ensure maximum versatility, Pro Torker™ Vortec heads feature dual pattern intake compatibility to allow use with virtually any intake manifold, early or late."
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
Billa,
What makes you think that it is a Vortec design? It does not appear to have the Vortec design, nor does RHS tout is as such. Their description appears to match a stock replacement. They even say that it is only good up to 350ci, meaning that it is at its max. A Vortec can breathe sufficiently on a 383.
I agree that if it was a Vortec, it would be a great head.
What makes you think that it is a Vortec design? It does not appear to have the Vortec design, nor does RHS tout is as such. Their description appears to match a stock replacement. They even say that it is only good up to 350ci, meaning that it is at its max. A Vortec can breathe sufficiently on a 383.
I agree that if it was a Vortec, it would be a great head.
Without flow numbers, we're kind of guessing here as others have noted...so unless we can find something I guess we're kinda back at square one
I dropped an email to RHS to see if they have anything they can provide. The Car Craft cylinder head database is still down; they advise me that they're working on it.http://www.racingheadservice.com/Inf...rtec-Heads.asp
