Just to add,..agreed, Muncies lived behind some pretty snotty big blocks in the day, but only because they were coupled with bias ply street tires that were 7 inches wide and were rock hard. Even then, the Muncie was usually first to let go in the drivetrain (in Novas in Camaros anyway), which introduced us to aftermarket trannies,..Lencos, etc.

If a stock L-88 was drag raced with an M22 and 10 inch slicks, I'd put the over and under at 10 for number of passes before a stock M22 pukes (I'll take the under).

FWIW...

 

http://www.texracing.com/

manual race trans only ... the real deal

 

Dragracing is not nor was it ever 'normal' behavior for what a Corvette was ever intended for. The same thing for gear shifts with the pedal to the floor... an engineer at the transmission department never had to take that into account. I agree with the comment of 5-speeds that tq ratings are only good for braging and there are more variables that play a role.

I doubt that my M22 will ever break with my combo and it has something around 450 lbs of torque.

 

Glad you bought this up...I wasn't about to... but since you did... Everyone here should take the time to READ the online catalog. Besides being very educational as to what all the trick stuff is going into Nascar autos these days you'll probably get a chuckle out of the Aluminum reverse gears... These transmissions are used in Nascar especially the SR-1. There are only a hand full of companies that make Nascar compliant transmissions.

Tell me if you see any Torque ratings published....

Paul

 

What's the big deal with publishing torque ratings, I am sure the engineers had some idea what kind of power they can handle. Torque ratings are a good thing, Tremec publishes their torque ratings and so did Borg Warner for their Super T10's just happen to be 2 transmissions I have owned and know the torque numbers. I am sure there are many more.

What are you supposed to do as a consumer, build a 600 tq motor and throw any tranny in there, the reason I bought the TKO600 was because of the torque it could handle not the overdrive, after I blew 2 Super T10 trannys

 

OK someone buy my M22 with a Autogear Super Case, cast iron mid plate and Antonio Masero gearset for $1150 and I'll throw in for no extra charge the "trick" tailhousing hose clamp that Tex Racing puts on its T-101A or Super T-10 transmission! Assembled and ready to run! I went with a Richmond Overdirve 6 speed.

 

My point.... they don't publish ratings because for the most part they really don't mean much. I've done this before and spoke about this on many forums. So I'm not going to repeat myself...

Here is what YOU can do to educate yourself about torque ratings....

Call up a company that publishes ratings and ask them about how they arrive at those figures. In fact, a company such as Tremec is perfect since they have different model transmissions with different ratings. After you are done trying to get a realistic answer from some engineer as to why the algorithms for a T5 in determining torque capacity are totally different then a T56... then how can one really compare apples to apples?

 

GM powertrain publishes torque ratings

 

 

Most of my muncie failures were cluster gear problems. From what I understand, when you apply too much power ( high torque motor, powershifting) the mainshaft and cluster try to push away from each other and the case actually expands. These were designed to be as lightweight as possible, economical enough to keep their contract with GM and still be durable enough behind a stock motor to get you past the warranty period. The M22 with its straighter cut gears would handle this a little better due to less thrust fore and aft and better tooth engagement. That is why they were standard equipment on the real high HP models. They were never designed to run with high HP and sticky tires or slicks. What Autogear has done is redesigned and strengthened the weakest points. A much heavier case made out of stronger alloy with reinforcing ribs to help keep the case from expanding, stronger gears, Better input bearing setup, and most importantly an iron midplate to minimize case flex. If you are comparing the strength of a stock muncie to an Autogear dig a little deeper because that is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

Well said Paul. BTW, what do you think of the Auto Gear Muncie OD gearset?

Excellent point.

 

and some other questions about ratings....

I have replied to posts on this forum about OD sets so please search. I've installed them for drivers, but in no means is it a performance set or really such a great upgrade.

In regards to chassis dynoed ratings, these don't mean much.

Different Rear axle ratios load transmissions differently with the same output from the engine, as do tires and clutch types. FYI all published ratings are a life factor rating... meaning that transmission CAN be subjected to bursts of said published rating over a calculated life of the transmission.... which they never tell you, thats why you need to call up the people who publish these ratings. You can EXCEED THE RATING.... you'll just shorten the life factor. These ratings are not STATIC applications such as sticking a breaker bar on the input and locking the output and applying a load until something snaps.

So just because your Muncie or TKO sees 800 Fts lbs... really doesn't mean much. The logic if one can understand this is simple....

If I do 3 passes at the drag strip with a engine hittin 800 Ft lbs of torque and the trans survives....does it pass and rate at 800FT Lbs? Now on the 4th run it scatters in a million pieces.... does it fail? This is where the life factor comes into play.

When it comes to the new Muncies which I happen to sell quite a bit of, in fact more than anyone... I just ask the customer what Horse power and axle ratio they are running. 600HP with a 3.08 and M22 probably not a good idea, but with a 4.11, no problem. There are quite a bit of the new Muncies out there in the 4 years they have been made. More than most people think. Realistically speaking, you are going to see some breakage. I've only seen 4 of mine in 4 years break and they were in cars with over 700HP and either a dead 3.08 rear or with a tilton triple disc clutch against a big block road race application. I expect these to break again because they fall out of the window I like to see them run in.

Paul

 

Here is how I educate myself, when I put 500ft lbs through a Super T10 rated at 300ft/lbs and blow it on the first WOT pass I pretty much figure the tranny blew because it was only rated at 300ft/lbs so it doesn't surprise me.

So I look around and see the TKO rated at 650ft/lbs and now I don't blow transmissions anymore. Good thing they had a rating or I wouldn't have bought it and probably bought an "unrated" Muncie and blown that too, 'nuff said

And in the future I would appreciate if you would refrain from telling me how to educate myself about anything

 

Another point, I doubt anyone here thinks that a transmission that is rated for 300ft/lbs is going to blow as soon as you put 301ft/lbs through it. It is merely a rough guide. If you have a mild small block it is probably the correct tranny for you.

If you had a killer race motor you probably want to step up to a beefier transmission. The ratings are only used as a ballpark figure and I am glad some companies bother to rate them, because I am a happy camper with my 650ft/lb TKO 600

 

Just for future reference how would a richmond road race 5
speed compair in strength, I'm not a fan of overdrives so I'm
talking the 1/1. in a perfect world I would love to have a G-force,
I even like the fact its not syncronized, but at around $5000
for one, most likely Ill never be able to spend that much for just
a transmission.

Besides different gear ratios, what are all the differences in
the road race version and the street version. I'm just guessing that
the road race version has strait cut gears the street might not.
Don't care anything about gear whine thats fine with me.

 

Seems to be debate on the strength of the M22.

Comparing it to a T-10 is ridiculous. I know the M22 can handle the abuse of a 600 HP engine. Yes, it will puke its guts out eventually, but tell me what part of a car doesn't break after its gets abused time after time after time. The M22 is tough enough to handle drag racing and such, but people have to remember that it was road racing tranny! It seems to me people are more busy trying to bash the things of the old trying to make the new superior...

Also, I keep seeing about the M22 having a straight cut gear. This would be the M20... The M22 was an angled cut gear with a slight curve in it. That is why when you backed off of the throttle, the M22 would talk to ya.

 

Could you point out where in this thread anyone compared a M22 to a Super T10 I must have missed it ?

 

You first started off by saying...

"I would question how he gets 850HP rating out of a Muncie tranny which was rated stock at less than 400ft/lbs probably closer to 300ft/lbs"

Since we are talking about the M22, I am guessing your not talk about the M20 or M21.

"Here is how I educate myself, when I put 500ft lbs through a Super T10 rated at 300ft/lbs and blow it on the first WOT pass I pretty much figure the tranny blew because it was only rated at 300ft/lbs so it doesn't surprise me."

Now your talking about the T-10 being rated at only 300 ft-lbs when we are talking about the M22. Earlier, you mentioned an M22 to be rated at closer to 300 Ft-lbs. So it appears to me, that you were talking about the strength and integrity of the M22, through your bad eperience with the T-10.

If I am wrong, I apologize for my misunderstanding..

 

I guess you are reading things into my posts. No where am I comparing a Super T10 to a Muncie of any description and there is a reason for this, I have never owned one so how could I compare the transmissions. The first statement above was about the M22 transmission.

The second statement above the conversation had changed to why or how transmissions were rated for torque in general. I was trying to get across I am glad some companies rate their transmissions and I used the Super T10 and TKO as examples of why I liked companies to rate their transmissions.

Anyway I am out of this one, I am happy the way things are

 

Ok.. I see what your saying now.. Thanks for clearing that up! I am sorry for the misunderstanding.