final engine config...what do you think
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Lantana TX
Any thoughts?
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
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From: NORTHEAST
We built an engine a while back for a customer with the 195 AFR's and he wanted a HYD. cam (couldn't talk him into a HYD roller) dynoed it and here is the link to the build and numbers.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...highlight=DYNO
And since then we have built some 383's with the same cam but used a set of 906 Vortec head casting with a 1.94 and 1.500 valves bowl hog work and a good valve job and we saw the same results on the dyno
The interesting point is the Vortecs have only a 170 intake runner but seem to make good power with raised intake runners and fast burn combustion chambers and the flow numbers were alright but then there is such a thing as quanity of air and quality of air which the Vortecs have.
We have built circle track 358 engines wet sump with the 906 castings Ford flat tappet cams 11:01 and a 600 carb and have seen 515 horse and 490 on the torque.
Our next one we want to try a set of the RHS Vortecs as a shop we deal with has them flowing 252 @ .500 lift with just his seat geometry and bowl cutters.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...highlight=DYNO
And since then we have built some 383's with the same cam but used a set of 906 Vortec head casting with a 1.94 and 1.500 valves bowl hog work and a good valve job and we saw the same results on the dyno
The interesting point is the Vortecs have only a 170 intake runner but seem to make good power with raised intake runners and fast burn combustion chambers and the flow numbers were alright but then there is such a thing as quanity of air and quality of air which the Vortecs have.
We have built circle track 358 engines wet sump with the 906 castings Ford flat tappet cams 11:01 and a 600 carb and have seen 515 horse and 490 on the torque.
Our next one we want to try a set of the RHS Vortecs as a shop we deal with has them flowing 252 @ .500 lift with just his seat geometry and bowl cutters.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
Duration @.050 - IN. 242 EX. 248
Valve lift W/ 1.5 rockers - IN. .540 EX. .562
Lobe sep. angle 110 deg
With that big of a cam it will lower your dynamic pressure and with the small runners will pick your air speed up which should help your torque, But with the small runners may hurt your top end numbers.
It should be interesting how it turns out.
Good luck with your build Carl
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 700
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From: Lantana TX
We built an engine a while back for a customer with the 195 AFR's and he wanted a HYD. cam (couldn't talk him into a HYD roller) dynoed it and here is the link to the build and numbers.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...highlight=DYNO
And since then we have built some 383's with the same cam but used a set of 906 Vortec head casting with a 1.94 and 1.500 valves bowl hog work and a good valve job and we saw the same results on the dyno
The interesting point is the Vortecs have only a 170 intake runner but seem to make good power with raised intake runners and fast burn combustion chambers and the flow numbers were alright but then there is such a thing as quanity of air and quality of air which the Vortecs have.
We have built circle track 358 engines wet sump with the 906 castings Ford flat tappet cams 11:01 and a 600 carb and have seen 515 horse and 490 on the torque.
Our next one we want to try a set of the RHS Vortecs as a shop we deal with has them flowing 252 @ .500 lift with just his seat geometry and bowl cutters.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...highlight=DYNO
And since then we have built some 383's with the same cam but used a set of 906 Vortec head casting with a 1.94 and 1.500 valves bowl hog work and a good valve job and we saw the same results on the dyno
The interesting point is the Vortecs have only a 170 intake runner but seem to make good power with raised intake runners and fast burn combustion chambers and the flow numbers were alright but then there is such a thing as quanity of air and quality of air which the Vortecs have.
We have built circle track 358 engines wet sump with the 906 castings Ford flat tappet cams 11:01 and a 600 carb and have seen 515 horse and 490 on the torque.
Our next one we want to try a set of the RHS Vortecs as a shop we deal with has them flowing 252 @ .500 lift with just his seat geometry and bowl cutters.
Funny I have the 906 with a great port job getting 473 hp out of my old and blown 383. However, with the new cam I needed to reseat them with new springs to handle up to a .600 lift, and get rid of the pressed in studs. By the time all said and done i was going to spend $400 parts and labor. So I was thinking of saving the $400 and selling them for $500 = $900 and just spend another few hundrred and get a nice set of DART Pro 1 aluminum.
The circle track guys love the vortec stuff....very easy and cheap to make power and I completely agree with your statements.
I think I may have found a way around my issue or getting a 200cc with a 70cc chamber. They have a 200cc 72cc chamber adn i was thinking of milling it down to 70cc to be at 10.3 CR.
Would this work and if so any idea's on the cost of milling a set of heads from 72cc to 70cc?
MY wife is gonna kill me
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 725
Likes: 1
From: FL.
AFR 195cc Street Heads, L98 Angle Plug w, 75cc 1094
The 1094 gasket is .015" , Youll need to measure your deck height.
Another way to go about it would be, 12cc dished pistons and use The AFR 195, 65cc chambers and the fel-1094.
After you Get all the combo specs , Someone (Billa) will get you some "accurate as possible" results readings, I know he did for me last year.
If I missed anything from not reading all the Posts , excuse, Im Sharing the internet today
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Lantana TX
What do you think? Do you remember what it cost to mill the heads?
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Lantana TX
Im not doing the math you need to finalize(Deck height,CR, dcr, Quench) But I think this may get you in the reliable 450HP range.
AFR 195cc Street Heads, L98 Angle Plug w, 75cc 1094
The 1094 gasket is .015" , Youll need to measure your deck height.
Another way to go about it would be, 12cc dished pistons and use The AFR 195, 65cc chambers and the fel-1094.
After you Get all the combo specs , Someone (Billa) will get you some "accurate as possible" results readings, I know he did for me last year.
If I missed anything from not reading all the Posts , excuse, Im Sharing the internet today
AFR 195cc Street Heads, L98 Angle Plug w, 75cc 1094
The 1094 gasket is .015" , Youll need to measure your deck height.
Another way to go about it would be, 12cc dished pistons and use The AFR 195, 65cc chambers and the fel-1094.
After you Get all the combo specs , Someone (Billa) will get you some "accurate as possible" results readings, I know he did for me last year.
If I missed anything from not reading all the Posts , excuse, Im Sharing the internet today
Thanks for all your help
I have a few ideas now and will call on Billa once I have everythgin done..hopefully next week.
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
Why can't you find pistons for the compression ratio you want ? Forget about milling the heads, get either the 75cc or 64cc AFR 195's and get the pistons to get you the compression ratio you want.
If you are looking at 10:5cr then I would look at th Comp Cams Magnum 286HR it is a nice cam with only 230 duration and with 1.6 rockers you are close to .600 lift. The new 195 Eliminators flow 280cfm, and you need big lift If you match your components correctly you will see over 500HP no problems.
I am not posting this to waste my time, do what you want, we will see the results
If you are looking at 10:5cr then I would look at th Comp Cams Magnum 286HR it is a nice cam with only 230 duration and with 1.6 rockers you are close to .600 lift. The new 195 Eliminators flow 280cfm, and you need big lift If you match your components correctly you will see over 500HP no problems.
I am not posting this to waste my time, do what you want, we will see the results
The ORIGINAL and bestest
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Toronto Ontario
Toronto Events Coordinator
If you are building a new motor from scratch, buy the heads you want and the pistons to get the CR you want.
When I built my 406, I used a set of Performer RPM heads because at the time I already had them, even though I knew they were too small for my motor. With their 70cc chamber and my pistons I was at 10.75:1 CR........well I finally got around to getting a set of AFR 195 eliminators and I first bought a 75cc set thinking I could live with the almost full point drop in CR (if I used their 65cc set, I would have been over 11:1CR and I didn't want that) but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I couldn't live with the CR drop, so I bought a second set of the 75cc heads and had AFR mill them down to 70cc and correct the intake surface angle as well. In my case, I had the make the heads work with the pistons to get the CR I wanted.
A friend of mine recently bought a 400 block that Motorhead was selling, and now he has bought the first set of AFR 195s I bought, and he will buy the appropriate pistons to get the CR he wants...
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Lantana TX
When I built my 406, I used a set of Performer RPM heads because at the time I already had them, even though I knew they were too small for my motor. With their 70cc chamber and my pistons I was at 10.75:1 CR........well I finally got around to getting a set of AFR 195 eliminators and I first bought a 75cc set thinking I could live with the almost full point drop in CR (if I used their 65cc set, I would have been over 11:1CR and I didn't want that) but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I couldn't live with the CR drop, so I bought a second set of the 75cc heads and had AFR mill them down to 70cc and correct the intake surface angle as well. In my case, I had the make the heads work with the pistons to get the CR I wanted.
A friend of mine recently bought a 400 block that Motorhead was selling, and now he has bought the first set of AFR 195s I bought, and he will buy the appropriate pistons to get the CR he wants...
Sorry in advance as I am new at this and can't see how to get this combo. I have looked at dome, flat top inverted nothing gets me to mid
10's that I can find.
Please prove me wrong
and make my decission easier.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 700
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From: Lantana TX
Why can't you find pistons for the compression ratio you want ? Forget about milling the heads, get either the 75cc or 64cc AFR 195's and get the pistons to get you the compression ratio you want.
If you are looking at 10:5cr then I would look at th Comp Cams Magnum 286HR it is a nice cam with only 230 duration and with 1.6 rockers you are close to .600 lift. The new 195 Eliminators flow 280cfm, and you need big lift If you match your components correctly you will see over 500HP no problems.
I am not posting this to waste my time, do what you want, we will see the results
If you are looking at 10:5cr then I would look at th Comp Cams Magnum 286HR it is a nice cam with only 230 duration and with 1.6 rockers you are close to .600 lift. The new 195 Eliminators flow 280cfm, and you need big lift If you match your components correctly you will see over 500HP no problems.
I am not posting this to waste my time, do what you want, we will see the results
. You have much more experience than I do so I am still on the learning curve. My block will not be back from the machinist for another 2 weeks, but as you know I have to have all the components selected before then.
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Joined: May 2005
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
It was $80 to mill the heads. I went from 74 cc to 70 and the intake lined up perfect. Your results may vary. Flat tops will be the most efficient burn. Keep your quench @ .035 to .040.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
Funny I have the 906 with a great port job getting 473 hp out of my old and blown 383. However, with the new cam I needed to reseat them with new springs to handle up to a .600 lift, and get rid of the pressed in studs. By the time all said and done i was going to spend $400 parts and labor. So I was thinking of saving the $400 and selling them for $500 = $900 and just spend another few hundrred and get a nice set of DART Pro 1 aluminum.
The circle track guys love the vortec stuff....very easy and cheap to make power and I completely agree with your statements.
I think I may have found a way around my issue or getting a 200cc with a 70cc chamber. They have a 200cc 72cc chamber adn i was thinking of milling it down to 70cc to be at 10.3 CR.
Would this work and if so any idea's on the cost of milling a set of heads from 72cc to 70cc?
MY wife is gonna kill me
The circle track guys love the vortec stuff....very easy and cheap to make power and I completely agree with your statements.
I think I may have found a way around my issue or getting a 200cc with a 70cc chamber. They have a 200cc 72cc chamber adn i was thinking of milling it down to 70cc to be at 10.3 CR.
Would this work and if so any idea's on the cost of milling a set of heads from 72cc to 70cc?
MY wife is gonna kill me
I should have added we installed screw in studs and guide plates on the Vortec heads we have used.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,959
Likes: 1
From: North Bend Ohio
Your combination with these AFR 180 heads made 474 HP on my Desktop Dyno. The Edelbrock 170 made 440 HP.
http://www.airflowresearch.com/180sbc_sh.php
The size of the port has very little to do with how good a set of heads will flow. There are some 200cc heads that are simply terrible. The AFR 180 has the most efficient intake port I have seen. All you would need to do is get the 75cc chamber milled to 70cc to get your compression.
If I were building this engine for myself I would get the AFR 180's.
BigBlockk
Later.....
http://www.airflowresearch.com/180sbc_sh.php
The size of the port has very little to do with how good a set of heads will flow. There are some 200cc heads that are simply terrible. The AFR 180 has the most efficient intake port I have seen. All you would need to do is get the 75cc chamber milled to 70cc to get your compression.
If I were building this engine for myself I would get the AFR 180's.
BigBlockk
Later.....
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 1
From: Ft. Walton Beach, Fl USA
I don't know about that. I have an 11:1 383 with a Comp XR294HR in an S15 Jimmy. Runs fine on 93 octane WITH vacuum advance. I do have a full time cowl air induction setup that probably helps somewhat.
The motor in my Vette is an 11:1 396sbc with a Herbert 244@.050 HR. It also runs fine on 93 octane with 36 degrees total PLUS 13 degrees vacuum advance. It too has a full time fresh air cowl induction setup.
The motor in my Vette is an 11:1 396sbc with a Herbert 244@.050 HR. It also runs fine on 93 octane with 36 degrees total PLUS 13 degrees vacuum advance. It too has a full time fresh air cowl induction setup.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Lantana TX
Your combination with these AFR 180 heads made 474 HP on my Desktop Dyno. The Edelbrock 170 made 440 HP.
http://www.airflowresearch.com/180sbc_sh.php
The size of the port has very little to do with how good a set of heads will flow. There are some 200cc heads that are simply terrible. The AFR 180 has the most efficient intake port I have seen. All you would need to do is get the 75cc chamber milled to 70cc to get your compression.
If I were building this engine for myself I would get the AFR 180's.
BigBlockk
Later.....
http://www.airflowresearch.com/180sbc_sh.php
The size of the port has very little to do with how good a set of heads will flow. There are some 200cc heads that are simply terrible. The AFR 180 has the most efficient intake port I have seen. All you would need to do is get the 75cc chamber milled to 70cc to get your compression.
If I were building this engine for myself I would get the AFR 180's.
BigBlockk
Later.....
I make that with a smaller cam and heads create vortec motor.I am going to assume that the heads are stoping it from some real numbers..like 500HP range.
I hate to bother you and if you can't I understand, but is it possible to run it with a SBC Dart PRO1 platimun 200cc head or AFR 195cc SBC Eliminator head?
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Lantana TX
I don't know about that. I have an 11:1 383 with a Comp XR294HR in an S15 Jimmy. Runs fine on 93 octane WITH vacuum advance. I do have a full time cowl air induction setup that probably helps somewhat.
The motor in my Vette is an 11:1 396sbc with a Herbert 244@.050 HR. It also runs fine on 93 octane with 36 degrees total PLUS 13 degrees vacuum advance. It too has a full time fresh air cowl induction setup.
The motor in my Vette is an 11:1 396sbc with a Herbert 244@.050 HR. It also runs fine on 93 octane with 36 degrees total PLUS 13 degrees vacuum advance. It too has a full time fresh air cowl induction setup.
because if it happens the car goes by by. But you do basically have the same set up that I am looking at
have you ever been on the dyno?
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,959
Likes: 1
From: North Bend Ohio
The previous numbers I gave you were with the camshaft profile moved around a little bit. This time I took your exact combo and added a dual plane intake manifold and a 750 CFM carburetor. All of these numbers are with small tube headers and mufflers.
Edelbrock 170cc E tech = 457/5500 HP and 476/4500 TQ.
AFR 180cc = 473/6000 HP and 481/4500 TQ.
AFR 190cc = 481/6000 HP and 481/4500 TQ.
Dart 200 = 474/6000 HP and 475/4500 TQ.
If you go with a single plane manifold and an 850 carburetor the AFR 180's will do 514/6000 HP and 498/4500 TQ. You can ramp the other AFR and Dart heads up to this power level with this carb and manifold. With the AFR or Dart heads the intake manifold has become the restriction.
Also, I am of the opinion that the camshaft is a little too much for this engine. This cam would work better with a bigger engine or more compression.
BigBlockk
Later.....
Edelbrock 170cc E tech = 457/5500 HP and 476/4500 TQ.
AFR 180cc = 473/6000 HP and 481/4500 TQ.
AFR 190cc = 481/6000 HP and 481/4500 TQ.
Dart 200 = 474/6000 HP and 475/4500 TQ.
If you go with a single plane manifold and an 850 carburetor the AFR 180's will do 514/6000 HP and 498/4500 TQ. You can ramp the other AFR and Dart heads up to this power level with this carb and manifold. With the AFR or Dart heads the intake manifold has become the restriction.
Also, I am of the opinion that the camshaft is a little too much for this engine. This cam would work better with a bigger engine or more compression.
BigBlockk
Later.....