Well i commend you for your efforts and can sympathize that you haven't got a fix yet. Just one more thing to consider is what kind of heat shield did you use? I have no faith in the blanket wraps that only hold the heat inside the starter metal once it finally heats up. And many other shields are poor design too - i tried 3 before i found that JC Whitney shield.
Just need to think heat transfer here and thermodynamics and i know from your resume u can do that. Any heat shield needs to be in the correct position to reflect the radiant heat. Also there needs to be an air-gap between the heat sheild and solenoid & starter to allow convection by the air circulating between shield & starter to keep all the exh heat transfered into the shield away from the starter & solenoid.
Now the BB C3's had a small solenoid shield (and i have 1 of those too) but i liked the JC Whintney shield much better. I did have to elongate the mounting holes and bend the shield to maintain an air-gap. But i was worth it - it works great on my '74 even with headers.

Hope this'll help ya',
cardo

 

I had this exact problem on my 86. Tried several rebuilt starters,two of which were DecoRemy rebuilds. Finally put in a ministarter and a heat shield, hasn't failed to start since. Its been several years.

 

OK - well this weekend is ACDelco's turn at bat with the installation of their starter - we will see if that will work.
I think if it was a "Battery" draw-down issue, as to where the battery wasn't getting a full recharge from the alternator, I would at least get that dreaded "CLICK-CLICK" or even a very slow turn over of the starter. I get nothing until the engine/starter cools down.

I just can't figure this one out - short of replacing the alternator - which is heavy duty because of the extra load of air conditioning. Which I believe at the time called for a heavy duty alternator. I've checked the volts at the Optima Red-Top which puts out over 700 at cold crank.

I will recheck all this again this weekend, when once again I'm laying on my back installing this heavy blasted starter for the 3rd time!

 

Ok, one thing we may have missed besides the "Delcos" which they all are no matter who rebuilds them. Question? Are you using a Heavy Duty starter? There should be a 3/4 in. gap between the solenoid switch and feild post on the starter case covered by a 3/4 piece of copper and bolt connecting them together. If you have this, at least its a HD core. If not a HD starter, take it back and exchange it for one.

 

Will check that out with the ACDelco replacement on Saturday. Weekends are the only time I have to work on my cars.

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is wire routing. Many years ago I had this same problem & I had changed out the starter, battery, battery cables & installed a heat shield, & it still failed when hot, turn the key & nothing, not even a click. I was underneath changing the oil & looked at the starter from another angle & noticed the power cable from the battery was pretty much touching the header. I rerouted the cable & no more hot start problem.

 

CVR builds a mini starter with a 3rd lug on it for guys wanting one.

 

Here is a question: What is the "R" connection used for?

 

For applying 12v to the + side of a coil - redundant if you have HEI...

 

I knew that and I forgot that along the way ..... Anyway the 3rd starter is finally installed. The ACDelco - this one gave me some initial problems - Had to go back under and align and retighten the terminals - on my initial test I didn't even get a "grunt" from the starter. Finally got everything right and it fired right up. Now the break-in period begins or should I say my test cycle - I won't know if this thing is going to be any better then the Delco Remy (WorldWide) until I take it out on a long cruise. If I get this "Heat Soak" solenoid problem again - I just may spend the big bucks and switch to a mini-starter.

 

Had a Camaro in high school with headers. Always ran a 1000cca battery and hd alternator. This was a daily driver. I usually had to replace the starter every 6 months. Heat Soak DOES exist.

I've never gotten the heat soak issue right away on a new rebuilt starter though. Usually after about 6 months of hot daily driving. Had a Camaro in highschool with the Autozone "lifetime warranty". Got my money out of that warranty! About the only thing Autozone sells that's worth a crap is it's warranty!

Yes-heat soak does exist!

 

I had starter problems with my 69 NCRS car. I went to Finch Alternator and Starter Rebuilders in Houston and had them rebuild my starter. They rebuilt my starter with heavy duty internal components and have had no problems starting since then.

 

Lot's of good thoughts here, but having several rebuilts last year that would not crank when hot, I went to a mini and will never look back. And the car will be judged at BG this year. It's a hit I am willing to take.
Rand

 

im with this guy on this one.....heat creates resistance in many things.....check all of your wiring and clean all the grounds

 

Joker,
If you can get it to crank with a screwdriver shorted across the starter terminals when you have the hot start problem, adding a relay will solve the issue.

Or just spring for the mini starter. The problem will go away with either solution.



-Mark.

 

G'day,
Thought I'd share my views. My Corvette has headers and it always starts up, hot or cold. It is still unregistered, so I cannot take it for a long drive to try it out.

However, my other car is a V8 Holden Commodore originally fitted with a 253 cubic inch V8. The engine has a 3 and 5/8" bore and 3 and 1/16" stroke and a bore spacing of 4.40", same as a SBC. When that engine wore out, I fitted a 308 Holden V8. Same bore spacing and stroke as a 253, but with a 4.000" bore. I had new heads milled for about 10:1 comp. ratio. The Holden starter is an AC Delco and looks similar to a Chev starter.

Took it out for a maiden drive and stopped somewhere to check for oil leaks etc. Car wouldn't start. Nothing from the starter. The battery gauge in instrument panel didn't drop when start position engaged. I found a piece of fuel line in the boot and siphoned water from the washer bottle over the starter and its solenoid to cool it down. Presto! Starter fired the engine right up and I drove home.

THERE IS SUCH A THING AS HEAT SOAK!!!!!!!

Over summer a few months ago, I had to carry a water bottle in the car that I would use to douse the starter when the engine was hot or it wouldn't start. I even made up a heat shield and fitted it to the starter, as the cast iron exhaust manifold is real close to the starter, but it only allowed the engine to re-start when it was warm, not hot.

A few companies here in Australia make up mini starters for Holdens, as well as Chevs and Fords, so that is my next step. These appear to be based on small industrial Japanese diesel starters and they all seem to have a gear reduction built into them. After that, headers.

Trouble with the 1983 Commodore is that it is based on the German Opel Commodore design that had a four or six cylinder engine in it from the factory. Holden though, shoehorned a 4.2 and 5.0 litre V8 into them, so room between the chassis rails is tight, and the exhaust has to run through the small amount of room between the engine block/starter and the chassis rail on the left hand (passenger) side. Even if I fit headers, there is only a finite amount of room available so I will probably still have this problem.

Fortunately, the Corvette has a lot more room available, but I plan to build a heat shield for its starter, just in case.

Regards from Down Under

aussiejohn
14 months to go

 

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments! The ACDelco is in but so far I have not taken it out on the road for any duration.

If this doesn't work - I will look through the Summit web site and find me a mini-starter that I can use.

Here is my question - These "Mini-Starters", what's so special about them? I assume from the name that they are smaller, are they better made? Do they last? I assume they are plug and play - do I shim it like I do they original starter? Oh well maybe I won't have to find out if this ACDelco does the trick!

aussiejohn - best of luck with your Corvette - and your Heat Soak issues on the Commodore!

 

Here is the scoop in many cases - The original GM design needs a lot of electricity to pull the plunger in. The requirement is greater when the GM solenoid is very hot. The stock electrical system has a long route to travel and is subject to extra resistance as the car ages. Those issues combine and cause the starter to fail to move the plunger and crank the engine when hot. You can verify if this is your problem by using a screwdriver across the terminals between the large hot lug and the tiny "S" terminal on the starter when it will not hot start. YOU MUST NOT BE IN GEAR WHEN PERFORMING THIS TEST. If the screwdriver causes the engine to crank, you can add a relay to provide 12V directly to the "S" terminal.

Another way is to use a mini starter. The mini requires less electricity to move the plunger so it will actualy crank when the original design will just sit there. The electrical demand to get it to energize is so much less it will easily do the job when hot.

The other way is to trace your electrical system and find where the high resistance is that causes the problem. Most people will choose one of the other "fixes".

The original GM design was marginal at best for hot starts. This is backed up by many years of people having this problem and GM technical service bulletins and field fixes for the problem over the years back when the cars were brand new. Fight it which ever way you like.

-Mark.

 

do you have any electrical engineering or chemistry degree or experience to backup this statement? Automotive batteries operate on fairly simple chemical principals. Ions transfer between plates and electrolyte based upon immediate presence or absence of electrical stimulus. Please do not propagate theories that batteries recover by simply sitting in an inactive state unless you can back that up with some evidence or fact.

The "miracle" that you refer to, and many of us have seen, has nothing to do with the battery magically recharging itself without the presence of electrical impulse.

Many factors impact ability to turn over a starter. A battery has a limited capacity of amps/current that it can deliver at any moment. Further, the wiring has a limited amount of current that it can pass. If anything changes in the mix that increases the demand for current, you may out stripe the sytems ability to deliver that current.

For example, assume that a cold starter requires 100 amps to crank and a hot starter requires 125 amps to crank (not implausible, but I can't give you fact to back it up other than knowing temperature can impact resistance of wire and current required is a directly related to resistance - we also know that magnets can change properties based upon heat). If the battery or wiring were in some way is limited to 100 amps (let's say due to corrossion), the starter would turn very slow when hot and be very crisp when cold.

Scenarios such as this are far more likely to explain the "miracle" that you refer to than the battery simply recharging itself.

 

I bought a ministarter from the GM Performance Parts catalog and it seems to be a quality unit. Also, there's a big weight savings with respect to the original starter.

Yes, having a look at the battery is a good idea. A new battery should produce an approximate 800 amp pulse of current into the starter. A dealership or battery installation center should have a test unit to check the batteries peak current output capability. The battery in my DD is several years old and it checks out at 600 amps, but is still good enough to spin the engine over.