Late last summer I replaced (I think the original AC-Delco) starter with what I thought was and OEM remanufactured one from Remy (retail market name: Worldwide International). To make a long story short - 2 of these starter from Remy have failed. It works fine when the car and weather is cold, but once summer comes around, I have the following problem:

Car cold starts fine, drive it around 45 mins or so and stop and try and restart - car will not start. Wait 45 mins for cool-down, car starts fine. I have also hit the starter with a hammer and sometimes that would work. Like I said I have tried two "WorldWide International" , which is Delco Remy. I am now going with an AC-Delco from a parts store that I found that ONLY sells AC-Delco parts. I hope this one works better then the Remy starter because the AC-Delco if 50% more expensive.

 

Sounds like you have a problem with the solenoids getting hot and failing. Do you have headers?

If you have problems with the new starter, maybe look into a heat shield starter bag, or a mini starter to help get more space between the starter and the exhaust.

 

I think the problem is called heat soak which affects the solenoid on the starter, not sure if it affects the resistance in the solenoid or what it does as i've never had the question answered. don't know if any guru's on here know how heat affects the solenoid, and what it does to it. I know a lot of people use mini starters as they can handle the heat a lot more.
Peter

 

Assuming when you say the car does not start when hot that means "no" click from the solenoid.That sounds like the classic heat soak as talked about above.Since you have had several starters and the same condition keeps coming up I would recommend wiring in a temporary test light at the S terminal on the starter solenoid in a location you can see it when trying to start the car.The next time it fails to start observe the test light.If its lit then the S term. is getting 12 volts and it is a solenoid issue.
But if its not lit then you could have an electrical issue with your wiring.For instance I believe in your 81 you have a "starter interupt relay" that is part of the factory alarm system.It has the ability to produce the same condition-no start,no click.

 

Like Durango and knodty mentioned. The solenoid winding resistance increases enough with temp and drop too much voltage/reduces solenoid pull-in current.

I bought this start shield from JC Whitney: part#ZX830176Y
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/P...r+heat+shields

I fit it up on my stock starter so it had an airgap/clearance everwhere but the bolt attachments. Has worked for me with headers in over 100*F traffic.


Thats my cure.
cardo0

 

Here is the condition when it won't start:

From cold start - everything is fine. If I drive the car for approximately 45 mins or so - after the engine rises to normal operating temperature - then I have problems if I shut off the car and try to restart. There is no "click-click" from the solenoid. I have "POWER" to everything else - but the starter will not turn over.

With this last swap out, I also installed a heat shield on the starter. As far as I can see, it did no good.

Once the car cools down it starts just fine.

You do bring up an interesting point about the "starter-interup" feature of the 81. Last year the alarm system would not turn off. It was in constant alarm mode - blowing the horn once the battery was connected. I checked all the sensor I knew the location of and could not find the ground fault so I pulled the main connector which is located in the passenger storage compartment. Where is the relay located - under the center console?

 

Yes its in the console and should have 3 purples and a black going to it.

 

Put a bigger battery in the car with more cold cranking power.and the problem will probably go away.

Do not worry about words of wisdom claiming that when a starter gets hot it stops working. Not so, everything gets hot under the hood. You may be marginal on recharging the battery while driving and drawing as many amps or more than your alternator can put out. Under this condition your battery would take a while to build back up. A condition you have experienced. All of the starters that fit GM autos are made by Delco Reme. The same starter everyone uses to rebuild. The only difference is the company name used to re-build or re-manufacture the Delcos. There are good builders and also bad builders....

 

Been there, done that just last week. I was experiencing the same symptoms, start fine cold, dead when hot. I ordered a new mini starter and after ordering it, I decided to check my receipts and discovered my Optima red top was on it's eleventh season. I put a new red top in it and problem solved. I have not put the new mini starter in and now I am not sure I will.

 

Worldwide is a discount house brand of reman parts. I would only buy a genuine reman by Delco starter-from Delco distriburor, O'Reileys, Advance carry them. The discount stores start with Delco Remy cores and rebuild them. Some of the "discount" rebuilds are not worth using as paperweights as you have found out....

 

I agree with you on a starter motor getting hot,it should not make a difference.But as far as the solenoid I cant agree.I have seen a lot of heat sensitive solenoids.Some brands solenoids are just not good.

 

Just an FYI. Iron & magnetic materials, can lose their ability to be magnetic when they get hot, and will regain that ability when they cool. I haven't heard/read of the actual cause of heat soak, other than wire resistance, which also changes with temperatures, but this may explain the problems. Different alloys of iron would be affected differently, so rebuilds using iron from uncontrolled sources, may also fit the problem.

If anyone wants to experiment with a solenoid that seems to be failing I'd suggest putting it in an oven and see if you can reproduce the failure. Please POST if anyone gives this a try. I've never actually seen the problem.

Andy

 

I'm having this same "heat soak" issue and, in my case, a bigger battery doesn't do a thing to alleviate the problem..


I've been told that the newer GM starters, which are smaller, (mid 90's Suburban) use rare earth magnets which will alleviate the problem. Only problem is that those starters do not have the third lug, which means they'll require something extra in order for them to work (that fix has been listed here on the forums).


Anyone want to chime in?

 

Do you still have the solenoid? Do you have the time to give the "oven" test a try? Just rig up a battery close to the oven and let the solenoid "soak" at let's say 150, 200, 250 degrees, take it out quickly and see if it will pull in the core. Make sure to use the same spring, or something you can gage the amount of "pull" force you're getting.

Andy

 

This will probably sound weird, but I've seen it happen. A particular model of car in Australia some years ago had similar symptoms as you described - ok when cold but super slow cranking when hot. A friend of mine had one of these cars but his was worse, it produced nothing when hot, not even a click. We made up new battery cables at work and used a heavier gauge wire than what had come from the factory and the problem was gone - no difference in cranking when hot or cold.

Is it possible one of your battery leads have broken nearly all the way through with only a few strands left connected?

Just a thought...

 

I think this is where most get confused.These are 2 seperate and different problems.I believe Ironcross's fix of a bigger battery will fix the "slow cranking when hot" but do nothing for the "no click".

 

Do your research please - "WorldWide" is REMY International which was Delco Remy until 2004 when they dropped the "Delco" part from their name. They currently License the name from GM and can use it on their products. For retail to Advance Auto their starter are sold under WorldWide. So, in your words I am using an OEM replacement starter from Remy and by the way, ACDelco, a division of GM also makes starter from GM. I do not believe that Remy makes new OEM starts for GM at this time.
If you would like to know more about this confusing issue with the "Delco" part of the brand name please see:

http://www.remyinc.com/aboutus/overview.htm

http://www.remyinc.com/aboutus/history.htm

And ACDelco's website - http://www.acdelco.com/index.jsp

You have to search harder here to understand the division history - it's better explained over on the Remy site. Basically a company called "Dayton Engineering Laboratories Company (DELCO)" and Remy Electric Company" merged under a company called United Motors Corporation. United Motors was then bought by "General Motors".
Delco Remy was spun off by GM in 1994. Delco Remy dropped the Delco name in 2004. But as I said above they license the "Delco" brand name from GM.

I am buying an ACDelco this Thursday - it will cost more but ACDelco is the one and only true OEM starter for GM cars. Yes it will be a reman from ACDelco as well but I gotta try something other then a Remy. BTW in order to find an ACDelco starter I had to find a store that only sells ACDelco products and that isn't Advance, Pepboys or Autozone, its a licensed independant parts store.

To they guy that said there is no heat socke problem with a starter - boy you got a lot to learn - solenoids - sometimes overheat and won't work - don't ask me why but it's a known issue with starters. I had this problem with my 95 and repaced the starter last year - no problems today.

To the guy that said install a "Heat Shield" - I did already - same problem. Like I said next try will be an ACDelco starter.

To the ones that said replace the battery - already did that too - brand new REDTOP, less then a year old and yes it's getting enough juice when it's running - over 13 volts according to the meter in the dash, and with my multi-meter when I installed the battery.

 

[QUOTE=IrishJoker;ad to find a store that only sells ACDelco products and that isn't Advance, Pepboys or Autozone, its a licensed independant parts store.

To they guy that said there is no heat socke problem with a starter - boy you got a lot to learn - solenoids - sometimes overheat and won't work - don't ask me why but it's a known issue with starters. I had this problem with my 95 and repaced the starter last year - no problems today.

To the ones that said replace the battery - already did that too - brand new REDTOP, less then a year old and yes it's getting enough juice when it's running - over 13 volts according to the meter in the dash, and with my multi-meter when I installed the battery.[/QUOTE]

I`m the one that said no 'heat soak'. its only an excuse for a real problem..

And yes thank you I have learned a lot with one of the largest independant family owned auto parts stores in the Detroit area since 1945 and also selling one of the BEST alternator , starter and generators available anywhere. Our business {my Dads} has sold thousands through the years and have serviced every conceivable cranking and charging problem that ever happened. Oh, Delco, or Delco Reme is all thats available for your vette and a new starter is a E-Bay issue. But I still have in stock some 'New' 62 Vette generators. GM starters are Delcos, every one of them. And it dont make any difference who rebuilds them they are still Delcos and recognized as such. Correct!

Next time try a real auto parts store,..

 

That's wrong - please refer yourself to the ACDelco website and read. I can get an ACDelco and not a Remy Delco - yes they are both remanufacutered Starters - but it's all in the reman and quality control - yes the core is probably the same as was produced in 1981 - that's just the casing - it's the quality of the parts that go in the casing that matters.
So you don't believe there is such a thing as a "Heat Soak" problem - that's fine if you don't that's your prerogative.
You want to get into knowledge base - my dad is a master mechanic - almost 60 yrs of experience - and was associated with NAPA for over 10 yrs - we never owned a "parts store" but we've rebuilt a lot of cars over the years and have learned who makes the quality parts. I educated myself on the ACDelco vs. Delco REMY myself by doing the research on their own websites.
I will let you know if there is a quality difference between the two shortly, once I buy and install the ACDelco starter.
If this doesn't work I will start looking at different issues. The Battery should be eliminated from the problem since it's a new REDTOP and I know it's getting at least 14 volts back into it. I redid all the cable from the alternator to the battery last year, but I will recheck it again.

In your opinion, what is the problem: Battery new, more then 14v recharge, tried two reman Delco Remy starters - (they marketed it under the WorldWide brand name).

The condition is - cold start = fine
Hot start = negative start until a cool down period has occured. So you tell me, what do you think the issue is?

 

Hardly no one on the forum except a Vette repair shop has the equipment like we have to positively determine what the actual problem with your car is all about.

I mentioned battery because its easiest for anyone to replace and normally solves the problem when a starter cranks good when cold. Just because 14 volts jumps up does not mean the battery is strong enough. That only means the alternator is working.

Which brings up another possibility. If the alternator is not replacing the total amp draw being used while driving from place to place the battery will not have enough voltage for a hot restart. But if we set and wait for the battery to recover by itself and in about 20 minutes it by a miracle starts. Possible solution here is a suggestion of a higher amp alternator to keep the battery at a full charge while driving avoiding those hot no starts from a weaken battery.

As for the starters, make sure its a HD {heavy duty}. Easily identified by the 3/4 in. gap or lack of gap at the feild connection on the rear of the switch to the post out of the case.

Also when setting hot without the engine running everything under the hood actually will get hotter than when turned off. Just watch your temperture gauge and see how it moves up before it would go down.