New front end allignment.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,709
Likes: 25
From: Sorrento Italy
New front end allignment.
I think i need a proper re-allignment of my '77, specially in the front end, since i have the new 9.5x15 (front) and 11.5x15 (rear) wheels with wide Hoosiers...i didnt modified it, even if i'm sure it was needed.
Actually the front, at speed, becomes too ''nervous'' and too sensible to direction changes, specially at speed along wide bends and with not perfectly smooth tarmac.
It gives you always an urgency feeling and need max attention to have it properly around, i'd like something more stable and easy to drive, need more grip at front for sure.
What figures would you advice?
Thanks.
Actually the front, at speed, becomes too ''nervous'' and too sensible to direction changes, specially at speed along wide bends and with not perfectly smooth tarmac.
It gives you always an urgency feeling and need max attention to have it properly around, i'd like something more stable and easy to drive, need more grip at front for sure.
What figures would you advice?
Thanks.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,126
Likes: 174
From: WI
I think i need a proper re-allignment of my '77, specially in the front end, since i have the new 9.5x15 (front) and 11.5x15 (rear) wheels with wide Hoosiers...i didnt modified it, even if i'm sure it was needed.
Actually the front, at speed, becomes too ''nervous'' and too sensible to direction changes, specially at speed along wide bends and with not perfectly smooth tarmac.
It gives you always an urgency feeling and need max attention to have it properly around, i'd like something more stable and easy to drive, need more grip at front for sure.
What figures would you advice?
Thanks.
Actually the front, at speed, becomes too ''nervous'' and too sensible to direction changes, specially at speed along wide bends and with not perfectly smooth tarmac.
It gives you always an urgency feeling and need max attention to have it properly around, i'd like something more stable and easy to drive, need more grip at front for sure.
What figures would you advice?
Thanks.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 5
From: Japan
You didn't specify what your current settings were, so I'm guessing at this point, but off the top of my head I'd say you're 'toed out' too much and/or there are some uncorrected bump-steer issues at play. Check the toe and see where it's at.....if it's toed out reset it to zero and see what it does; if the problem still exists check bump steer. I'm not sure about this but there may be some kits out there that address this issue by correcting tie rod end height (there are for Fords....). Good Luck!!
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
Hi Panic,
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but you may be expecting too much from the car. The suspension was designed around 1960 (almost 50 years ago!) and was compromised by having to use stock Chevy front suspension parts. Even set up properly these cars won't handle nearly as well as even a C4 let alone a C5 or C6.
The trailing arm design has built in squat and raise during acceleration and braking, so even small throttle adjustments in a corner will upset the "set" of the car.
My '69 has completely rebuilt front and rear suspension, new steering components including the steering box, and a plastic rear spring; it's pretty twitchy going around corners compared to my C5 & C6 ZO6s. I've followed well set up C3s in my Zs, and I can see them twitching all over the place while I just sit back behind them totally relaxed and feeling nothing but the gentle G forces.
I'm sure you've driven modern European cars and know how well they handle - you can't expect a C3 to be like that without serious suspension work.
PS. Your car looks GREAT!!!
Cheers,
Pete
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but you may be expecting too much from the car. The suspension was designed around 1960 (almost 50 years ago!) and was compromised by having to use stock Chevy front suspension parts. Even set up properly these cars won't handle nearly as well as even a C4 let alone a C5 or C6.
The trailing arm design has built in squat and raise during acceleration and braking, so even small throttle adjustments in a corner will upset the "set" of the car.
My '69 has completely rebuilt front and rear suspension, new steering components including the steering box, and a plastic rear spring; it's pretty twitchy going around corners compared to my C5 & C6 ZO6s. I've followed well set up C3s in my Zs, and I can see them twitching all over the place while I just sit back behind them totally relaxed and feeling nothing but the gentle G forces.
I'm sure you've driven modern European cars and know how well they handle - you can't expect a C3 to be like that without serious suspension work.
PS. Your car looks GREAT!!!
Cheers,
Pete
Last edited by PeteZO6; Oct 11, 2008 at 10:03 PM. Reason: spelling
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)
Joe Kucinski
Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!
Brett Foote
Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Revolutionary 'Corvette Firsts' Most People Don't Know
Joe Kucinski
5 Reasons to Upgrade to an LS6-Powered Corvette; 5 Reasons to Stay LT2
Michael S. Palmer
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,709
Likes: 25
From: Sorrento Italy
I think they were those given on V&P site, i've done that a couple of years ago, i remember i took the car to a good garage for the shop and we've spent nearly half a day...BTW the guy got crazy with the front shims out and in.
SW, i forgot the exact figure.
SW, i forgot the exact figure.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,709
Likes: 25
From: Sorrento Italy
Hi Panic,
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but you may be expecting too much from the car. The suspension was designed around 1960 (almost 50 years ago!) and was compromised by having to use stock Chevy front suspension parts. Even set up properly these cars won't handle nearly as well as even a C4 let alone a C5 or C6.
The trailing arm design has built in squat and raise during acceleration and braking, so even small throttle adjustments in a corner will upset the "set" of the car.
My '69 has completely rebuilt front and rear suspension, new steering components including the steering box, and a plastic rear spring; it's pretty twitchy going around corners compared to my C5 & C6 ZO6s. I've followed well set up C3s in my Zs, and I can see them twitching all over the place while I just sit back behind them totally relaxed and feeling nothing but the gentle G forces.
I'm sure you've driven modern European cars and know how well they handle - you can't expect a C3 to be like that without serious suspension work.
PS. Your car looks GREAT!!!
Cheers,
Pete
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but you may be expecting too much from the car. The suspension was designed around 1960 (almost 50 years ago!) and was compromised by having to use stock Chevy front suspension parts. Even set up properly these cars won't handle nearly as well as even a C4 let alone a C5 or C6.
The trailing arm design has built in squat and raise during acceleration and braking, so even small throttle adjustments in a corner will upset the "set" of the car.
My '69 has completely rebuilt front and rear suspension, new steering components including the steering box, and a plastic rear spring; it's pretty twitchy going around corners compared to my C5 & C6 ZO6s. I've followed well set up C3s in my Zs, and I can see them twitching all over the place while I just sit back behind them totally relaxed and feeling nothing but the gentle G forces.
I'm sure you've driven modern European cars and know how well they handle - you can't expect a C3 to be like that without serious suspension work.
PS. Your car looks GREAT!!!
Cheers,
Pete
My '77 weights only 1.260kgs (and that alone is half the job), has new susp rear/front, new willwood braking, 575hp powerplant and caring hands (mine
) that know how to take the juice out of her....No, the car is twice as good as it is now for sure, need to redo the allignment, specially front end.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I have similar hoosiers. I have found that "Zero toe" and my max 4.2 degree caster is about the best. I was running the front 10X25X15 until I went to bigger brakes and now I use the 295X35X17 R-6
Camber can only be set with a pyro meter. I don't have much vertical movement, so bump steer is not much of a concern.
Without a 6-8 point roll cage you can not increase spring rates passed about 550# front, because you just induce frame flex.
I've also gone to 1/8th rear toe to scrub the rear tires so they don't cool off in long straights
Camber can only be set with a pyro meter. I don't have much vertical movement, so bump steer is not much of a concern.
Without a 6-8 point roll cage you can not increase spring rates passed about 550# front, because you just induce frame flex.
I've also gone to 1/8th rear toe to scrub the rear tires so they don't cool off in long straights
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,709
Likes: 25
From: Sorrento Italy
I used to drive the grey Griffith (...and my bikes) on that road, the vette is in Spain where i live at the moment.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,709
Likes: 25
From: Sorrento Italy
I have similar hoosiers. I have found that "Zero toe" and my max 4.2 degree caster is about the best. I was running the front 10X25X15 until I went to bigger brakes and now I use the 295X35X17 R-6
Camber can only be set with a pyro meter. I don't have much vertical movement, so bump steer is not much of a concern.
Without a 6-8 point roll cage you can not increase spring rates passed about 550# front, because you just induce frame flex.
I've also gone to 1/8th rear toe to scrub the rear tires so they don't cool off in long straights
Camber can only be set with a pyro meter. I don't have much vertical movement, so bump steer is not much of a concern.
Without a 6-8 point roll cage you can not increase spring rates passed about 550# front, because you just induce frame flex.
I've also gone to 1/8th rear toe to scrub the rear tires so they don't cool off in long straights
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Pulling in after a 3-4 lap hot laps 4.2 mile during session I have about a 173 - 182 tire temp. The Hoosiers work between 150 and 200 and get greasy above 200.
The best thing for the front end I have done is to go to the coil over QA1 dual adjust. My tires stick out past the body and I'm able to crank the height up to clear the tire body contact
The best thing for the front end I have done is to go to the coil over QA1 dual adjust. My tires stick out past the body and I'm able to crank the height up to clear the tire body contact
Last edited by gkull; Oct 13, 2008 at 07:23 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 1
Are you setting it up for track, hillclimb or the road? if the road, setting camber with a pyro is BS!
The problem is most likely NOT the alignment by itself but your front wheels, see with only about 7 degree of kingpin inclination, some serious offset wheels and wide tires, you have a huge scrub radius.
Need more grip? Smaller sway bar and softer shocks/springs so you don't excessvly side load (scrub radius) the tires. Want more straight line stability? toe in and/or more caster
The problem is most likely NOT the alignment by itself but your front wheels, see with only about 7 degree of kingpin inclination, some serious offset wheels and wide tires, you have a huge scrub radius.
Need more grip? Smaller sway bar and softer shocks/springs so you don't excessvly side load (scrub radius) the tires. Want more straight line stability? toe in and/or more caster
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
20+ years ago I was actively competing in SCCA solo Auto-X. All I was using in "BSP" was good "V & Z" rated street radial tires. I was able to determine correct camber and air pressure for my Vette with a pyrometer.
All you need to do is find a big enough parking lot to draw a 100 foot or even better 200 foot diameter skid pan. I did the skid pan thing for time at an SCCA event which when timed can be extrapolated out to lateral "G" force.
It's easy to hot lap 5 CCW and then 5 CW and then 2-3 CCW and stop and have somebody quickly do a pyro.
Yes this tells you if your street tires are getting the max use out of the tread.
All you need to do is find a big enough parking lot to draw a 100 foot or even better 200 foot diameter skid pan. I did the skid pan thing for time at an SCCA event which when timed can be extrapolated out to lateral "G" force.
It's easy to hot lap 5 CCW and then 5 CW and then 2-3 CCW and stop and have somebody quickly do a pyro.
Yes this tells you if your street tires are getting the max use out of the tread.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 1
Setting up your camber like that assumes that you are running on the street as if you were in auto xor whatever. For full out cornering the camber requirements for max. contact are different than on the street where you will be driving in a straight line and doing light cornering most of the time. If you set up your static camber to compensate for body roll in racing type conditions you will end up with far too aggressive settings for on the street resulting in uneven tire wear. Like I said, doing it this way is BS! It doesn't tell you if it gets the max out of the thread, it tells you that for the conditions you simulated when warming up the tires.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
When I drive on street tires I need the most traction I can get. I'm not concerned with how long my tires last.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 1
That's Marcks car, I have a 77 and there's no turbos on it or anything.
What I meant to say was, when reading tire temps on a track or auto X and then dialing in the camber to maximize the contact area and even out the temps across the tire, this is representing the actual driving you do, so a lot of high speed cornering and only short straight sections. As a result the static camber you dial in will be to compliment the camber curve for that style of driving. As an effect it in no way assures you have maximum straight line traction. usually you have to dial in a bit more static camber than you would want for straight line traction. It all comes down to the compromise. Now, for the street that compromise is a lot different than for the track. Setting a car up for a certain track sets it up for the unique combination of corners and straights presented on that track. On the street, it's always different unless you drive the same stretch every day, oh and the weather and all should be the same too.
For the street it's much more important to have a stable adjustment that offers good straight line stability, typical under steer to keep the back in check and so on.
What I meant to say was, when reading tire temps on a track or auto X and then dialing in the camber to maximize the contact area and even out the temps across the tire, this is representing the actual driving you do, so a lot of high speed cornering and only short straight sections. As a result the static camber you dial in will be to compliment the camber curve for that style of driving. As an effect it in no way assures you have maximum straight line traction. usually you have to dial in a bit more static camber than you would want for straight line traction. It all comes down to the compromise. Now, for the street that compromise is a lot different than for the track. Setting a car up for a certain track sets it up for the unique combination of corners and straights presented on that track. On the street, it's always different unless you drive the same stretch every day, oh and the weather and all should be the same too.
For the street it's much more important to have a stable adjustment that offers good straight line stability, typical under steer to keep the back in check and so on.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,709
Likes: 25
From: Sorrento Italy
Thanks for your contribution.
I think first thing i'll have to soften my front QA1, i believe they're too hard by at least 3/4 steps...
I would like to summerize all the advices in figures front and rear please, taking in account that it's a street one but that often i drive like i was on a ''track'', specially on highways...and the large front/rear Hoosiers.
I think first thing i'll have to soften my front QA1, i believe they're too hard by at least 3/4 steps...
I would like to summerize all the advices in figures front and rear please, taking in account that it's a street one but that often i drive like i was on a ''track'', specially on highways...and the large front/rear Hoosiers.