I agree the 400 blocks are a crap shoot but if you get the machine shop to get the block for you then you won't be taking any chances. The next step up is the SHP block.

Don't forget these aftermarket blocks usually require some machine work themselves added to the initial cost. You usually have to finish hone them and if you have ever acurately measured the deck heights of these blocks they might need to be decked to, it all adds up, you can't just look at the price of a SHP block or Motown or Lil M at Jegs and think that is the final price

 

No I use to own a Corvette years ago.

Speaking about attacks

I am not clueless about what works and what does not work when your talking about high horse power and DEPENDABILTY I sure some where in the shop we have a bucket of broken caps we have collected over the years where guys cut corners and over powered there 350 horse rated block and caps. And broken hyper pistons, cranks and two 400 blocks with cranks in them.

We are able to install billet caps which does bring up the HP rating and so far I not seen any of them break.

We have a pretty good reputation for we do and we don't cut corners and take risks with other peoples money and most guys like having peice of mind that they have a good block or engine.

I am sure you don't do what we do and yes .0003 means alot to us and to other people out there.

I am a perfectionest at what I do as I can tell your not arguing with me about whether plate honing makes a differance ETC. and by our posts I can tell you not up on the latest TECHNOLOGY thats for sure.

Its funny when some brings up my name you are the first to say you don't need it and I find that quite interesting.

There are a few people that want the best they can afford.

We deal with a couple hundred blocks year and problems guys have a between emails, phone calls and PMs. I am on alot of forums giving sound advice and have helped alot of people out with issues there having.

I can say you don't see what we see everyday.

Some one from this site sent me this link aout you HMMMM intersting!!

 

The 400 block is one we stay away from as we have had more calls about 400 blocks with problems then 350 blocks. I one comes in the shop we will machine it if it passes a sonic test and mag.

Every block that we machine whether its a Bowtie, Dart or OEM block is decked.

The SHP is rated at 600 horse and to get a 400 block to live at 600 horse takes a lot of work and its still a risk when it done and its not far of the cost of a SHP block.

(1) The webbing is stronger

(2) The caps are stronger

(3) The decks are thicker and don't crack like the 400 decks do.

(4) No steam holes to worry about

(5) The SHP block will go to 4.165 with no problems

(6) The SHP is set up for a factory roller set up

(7) the gm retro fit kit with roller lifters,spiders, tie bars and hardware is appox. 250.00 and to retrofit a 400 with good after market lifter is very costly which will help offset the price.

Joe Shermon kept breaking cylinders on the dyno and after taking all the interanals out and installing them into a after market block made 30 plus more HP over the stock 400 block.

Do a search on this site http://speedtalk.com/forum/index.php...89d986a2c13b80 and he has posted this more then once.

It really depends how deep your pockets are!!! But having a good foundation to start with is half the battle.

 

No Corvette. Yeah, I thought so.

If you don't know the difference between me calling out a poor business practice for a shop trying to build street engines vs you turning around every post and telling me what I have and haven't done (and being wrong to boot) - then you're a little lost. The difference is the word "you". So knock it off. As for making me out as following you around the forum - I think you see yourself larger in my mythology than you are - I just hate seeing bad engine advice to folks that maybe will build one engine and have to do it on a budget. They're not a racer that can afford to spend 20K and then come back in a week and spend another 20K. I haven't built racing engines and so I don't "do what you do" - but have built a couple of hundred street engines, and just about every one of them with a guy that was sweating bullets over every dime. That's the experience your shop DOESN'T have - but instead of trying to learn from that you just deride it. That's way easier than actually trying to think about something new. I also do a ton of work via PM and off-list...guys that have a $2500 - $3500 budget and can't even afford to buy a block from you no less an engine!

Let's hear from anyone - anyone - here that's broken a cap. Does it happen on racing engines? Sure. Does it happen on folks using a stock block for forced induction, 250 NOS shots or other insanity? Sure. Does it happen on a street engine making to a max maybe 1.5 HP/CID? Not if it's built right. Just in case you just woke up from a coma for the last 30 years or so - people have been making big power from factory blocks for a long, LONG time before there were aftermarket blocks or your CNC blocks.

I don't call telling someone - always - that they need an expen$ive aftermarket block and forged rotating assy's on every single engine sound advice - it's just There are a "few" "perfectionists" that have the $$$ and the need to do this and that's great for them - but to you every engine is a nail...so all you bring is a hammer.

Bottom line is that as I noted the first time I responded to one of your posts - race shops are useless for street performance engines.

 

FWIW, here's a link to a very respected engine builder that's written many magazine articles and delivered many proven street performance engines. I've used a few of his LT1 shortblocks and have a set of his heads on my 383 LT1 (sadly still on the stand). He has no hesitation in making 500 HP with the same block I referenced - a production roller-cam block. And he's willing to warranty it for 3 years. A shortblock sells for $2900 - try to get into that price range with an aftermarket block.

I guess he also has learned just how good the General's stock blocks are!

http://www.golenengineservice.com/ht...carbureted.htm

Before BLOCKMAN hits the only nail he can by noting that the block was torque-plate honed (his favorite dead horse) please read my other posts regarding this.

 

Here's a link to a great article from CarCraft about mixing bearing sets to achieve optimum clearances - and avoid an unneeded line hone.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ance_tips.html

 

No machine shop and your just an engine assembler Just what I thought.

I really don't know where you come up with these inflated prices of 20k for our engines

I really don't have much faith in magazine articles as I go buy hands on info and not what was written in a magazine to sell parts.

We have a lot of circle track engines out there 2 barrel 450 lift 11:01 that are 4 bolt 010 blocks that are 380 horse and 430 on the torque and no problems with the blocks.

We have seen broken caps over 425 horse, Engines over 425 we go to billet 4 bolt replacement caps and over 500 we go to splayed caps.

I have had many calls about guys tring to duplicate a magazine engines and not come close but they sure spent all the money on all the parts to try to get there.

We are lucky where we don't build budget engines as I can tell you this the budget circle track engines don't finish up front in the point standings at the end of the year. We don't use cast cranks and hyper pistons and these engines live longer then the cheap ones out there.

We prep out alot of stock blocks for engine assemblers and do their balancing, rod work, ETC, ALL the blocks are sonic tested clean and magged, line honed, deck to their spec, bored, plate hone, stroker clearanced,lifter bores honed and final cleaned ready to assemble for 595.00

There are alot of guys we deal with out there that are not on a budget and can afford to build a top of the line engine and go with a good block if we don't have a good 010 block in stock. Most guys send a block to us to machine and we set them up with a rotator all clearanced out and they assemble their own engine and so far no problems.

There is more money in blue print machining blocks then building budget engines thats for sure.

 

We line hone every block that comes in the shop and you know they don't come back beacuse the crank don't spin.

We have a Sunnen line hone table at both shops and we line hone for a lot of local shops where they set the crank in the block and torque it up and it binds up but the housing bores are to spec HMM, The problem is alignment from journal to journal not sizing.

How many blocks have you seen where the caps fit loose in their registers and how many housing bores have taper in them, So what bearings do you buy for those problems.

We see alot of housing bores where the verticle measurement is up to .003 over size then the measurement at the parting line its to size. And this seems to be common with truck engines.

Having the mains all the same size is the way to go and I know .0003 don't mean nothing to you buy your post but to some engine builders its alot.

When we were using our BHJ fixtures we ground two bars one for SBC and BBC that were .0005 under the low side and unless the block was line honed we could not slide the bar through the mains. The porper term is ALIGN HONING ( TO ALIGN THE HOUSING BORES AS WELL AS SIZE THEM)

Here are some good links on line honing.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...ht=line+honing

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...ht=line+honing

 

You really, really need to learn to read posts before responding - your response is full of so many errors it's hard to know where to start...so I won't bother. The folks on this board are all smart and they'll know when they see it.

In your "just an assembler" comment you dis'd just about every engine enthusiast on this forum. And, of course - I already made clear that I am "just an assembler" in another thread. You should eat dog food considering how much you like dead horse

In the end the key is the point you continue to make for me - your shop doesn't know how to build street performance engines and there are virtually zero circle track engines going into our Corvettes. So - in the end - you're posting the wrong information in the wrong community.

 

I guess this means every single crank you get is accurate to +/-.0000, since it's not about the size of the main bore, it's about the tolerance stack that establishes the correct bearing clearance. But I guess it takes "just an assembler" to actually measure and establish proper bearing clearance vs. just bluprinting everything in sight because that's how racing shops make "more money". As far as establishing bore alignment - I'll buy that this is critical on a racing engine that runs it's whole life at 7500 RPM...but on a street engine? No.

Bearings are retained and made round by proper crush - and if you're stating bearing crush is lessened and the bearing bore is no longer round at a .0003 oversize then...there's another reason to look for another shop. Gotta love a shop that is willing to spend your $$$ for +/-.0000 tolerances - but of course that's exactly what a racing block CNC shop wants you to think you need.

 

From the first:
"That would be total unnecessary work..."

"As far as I'm concerned if the crank spins freely, it is a good indicator that an align hone is not necessary. The advice given is valid, but don't fix what is not broken. If the housing bores are within spec. don't mess with them." [...]clearances can be adjusted by combining .001" under bearings with standard brgs." <- this sounds familiar.

 

Billa and Blockman.
I don't want to get into a pizzing match with either one of you but you both seem to like to argue with each other and you tie up a thread when you do it.
Can't the 2 of you "Agree to disagree" and be done with it.
Can't remember who the OP was in this thread,but I bet they wish the topic was adheared to more closely and the BS was put to the side.
Just my .02
And if you call me out I will ignore you! I have said what is on my mind and I am finished.
Sly

For the record...Billa has given me good info in the past,and I trust him.
Blockman has a habit of getting threads locked if my memory serves me.
Why did I get involved???? Cuz enough is enough already!

 

Sly, the only reason I'm responding to BLOCKMAN is that based on my experience he's providing bad information and I feel I have some level of duty to the community as part of the community. And I thought all of this was relevant to the OP. But I hear you - even though this posting is completely the opposite of what you sent me in a PM - and I'll drop off the thread.

<unsub>

 

I can't beleive that all the shops out there that line hone are taking a high risk of doing damage to an other wise good engine.

You should post this on speedtalk and other engine forums as alot of guys are line honing blocks over there and Dart line hones every block that goes out there door so how many are they damaging


And going by if a crank spins freely does take into consideration of a tapered housing bore or or housing bores that are over size.

And because of your lack of knowledge on bearings rod and mian bearings have eccentricty build into them and there not round

Billa number one I wish you could see the emails from people from this site about you. And this was brought to my attenion that you misleading everybody about my pricing is kind of a personal attack against me HMMM You really should not worry about some one posting some info on what I have posted on the WWW

The original post was building a 420 to 430 inch engine and my name got mentioned and then you started attacking me by saying you don't need a CNC block ETC. Then its I charge 2000 dollars for a block, Then the engines I build are 20,000.00 dollars and now line honing damages blocks

But building a 420 to 430 inch engine you not going to do it with the block you posted 10105123 which the bore range is 4.000 to 4.030

I have posted good info on the WWW about my finding on the SHP blocks and I am no the only one has those blocks and can machine them do a search as they are all over internet.

We do performance work on street, strip, oval track and marine appications and when we machine a block we do line hone them as we don't have time to put a crank in and give it a spin test. Why we get calls is cause guys want a block done right thats all or the shop they deal with can't do what they want done.

I run a CNC business an engine shop plus a trucking business so I keep pretty busy around here and I am no t here to get work thats for sure,I have posted prices here because of you saying we charge 2000 dollars to machine a block or we charge 20,000.00 for an engine which is far from the truth and you do this because you are intimidated by what I post and what we do for work.

We will continue to line hone all our blocks even though we are damaging them some how and all the journal are the same size as its up to the assembler to set the bearing clearances not me.

And if your buying cranks that heve more then a .0003 differance from journal to journal you may want to buy better crank again it sounds like a budget crank and you get what you pay for

Just to compare apples to apples here what do you do for work as myself and some others would really like to know???

Where are you buying your round bearings And what damage are we doing by line hone blocks as I will pass this on to Dick Maskin at Dart and all the other builders we deal with.

I can't wait to here this one.

Splitting bearings beacause of improper machine work or journal sizing is surely not budget building as they don't sell just half sets of bearings.


Back to work

 

When a guy post this shyt about me and my pricing I will deffend myself as I don't beleive I have mislead anyone about any of my posts as I do post factual info.

I should send you the recent emails I have received on this subject and the ones on plate honing. I guess I could say I have a few believers out there

 

so...all arguements aside because honestly I don't know WTF any of you are talking about what I want to know is what "pricing" are you referring to and I sincerely hope you are not using Corvetteforum to promote your business as you are not a supporting vendor here. If I find that to be the case I will have to ask you to cease that action until you do become a vendor here. If you are skirting the vendor rules and using the PM function to promote your business you are also in violation. I am of course only speculating here.

In the meantime lets keep it civil...I mean EVERYONE.....

 

WTF can't you read go back and read all the posts as BILLA is doing my pricing for me telling everyone I charge 2000 dollars for block work and I charge 20,000.00 for an engine as thats where that comes from. And thats far from the truth here as he has does this on another post a while back. Other then that I post no block pricing unless asked what one should pay for a certain machining operation. I DON'T PM or email anyone for work period

I have only posted so people are not mislead by some one who is trying to mis inform people. I Don't post on budget builds as we have never had to do this type of work as this post is on which block for a 420 to 430 CID engine.

I post no website, no phone number, or even the state I am from so I am not really looking for work I have enough going on as I run 3 businesses.

Then to say this Quote:Billa
From the first:
"That would be total unnecessary work and work that has a high risk of doing damage to an otherwise good engine."

I Have never damaged a block by line honing and to say this with out facts is very misleading, Sounds like a scare tactic so guys won't get their blocks line honed at the shops they deal with cause Billa shop don't who knows.

I am sure Billa has never line honed a block in his life or maybe the shop he uses has ruined a few blocks and if thats the case he may want to find some one else to do his work who knows.

Google line honing as there are a few thousand pages on line honing and I am sure there is not anything on damaging a block from that process.

I will take the liberty of posting that on the speedtalk site this evening and see if their is an issue with damaging blocks by line honing and if there is a problem I stand corrected here and will sell my line hone tables and Dart should do the same and GM as well. Then Billa can argue with them on how they are damaged and leave me out of it.

When blurting out statements like this at least come up with some info to back up your statements or its not very credible information.

Billa please don't post any more of your made up pricing on what we do just worry about yourself.

I have been in these debates many times with guys only to find out that they work at Walmart and have never have machined a block in their life and assemble one or two engines a year and I find that very very interesting.

Don't get me wrong Billa does post some good info but he worries about everybody else that their going to get a better job than what he does and thinks everyone is on a budget. The guys I know that own Corvettes don't mind spending money on their cars, boats, engines, toys ETC.


I post on appox. 25 forums I have posted tech articles given advice on tunning engines, head work, proper machining practices, balancing questions, dyno testing and parts issues ETC. and I get get quite a few calls, emails and PM's on these subjects over the years.

And have talk to quite a few guys on this site and to tell you the truth until a week ago I have not sold one thing to any one but have helped out quite a few guys with their problems. Thats the reason I am here if I needed more work ya I could advertise on this site but I am content with just answering questions on certain topics where I can give credible info. and not made up info.

 

I have no issues with either one of these guys, but line honing a performance build of a factory block is a given and if Im building bigger than a 383 with a 350 block or 406 with a 400 block I would seriously consider an aftermarket block. JMHO

 

My brother has a 427 small block (dart Iron Eagle block) he would sell. Used but in great shape for a fraction of what you could build it for.
his email: mjh427nova@yahoo.com

 

My apologies as I'm working to be the better man despite the personal attacks - but someone PM'd me and I do need to respond to this.

At no time did I ever reference specifically BLOCKMANS pricing.

The quote referenced came from the Speedtalk posts BLOCKMAN himself directed this community to:

As for the rest, it's just as inaccurate - I don't understand why someone can't disagree without being disagreeable (and personal) - but I'm staying out of it.