Posted this in the C2 section but got no response so I'll try it here......

Has anyone experienced this problem, and if so, how did you resolve it?

67 Corvette with std point type ignition, runs great.

Modifications:
1. smallblock engine changed to big block
2. point type distributor converted to breakerless electronic (http://www.lectriclimited.com/mainpage.htm Breakerless Ignition conversion)
3. 9502 Powermaster mini starter with #600 replacement R terminal diode kit (http://www.jegs.com/i/Powermaster/713/600/10002/-1)

Problem:
1. Engine will crank, but will not fire, unless the ballast resistor is bypassed.

2. With the #600 replacement R terminal diode wire installed, the ballast resistor still must be bypassed in order for the engine to fire.

3. Engine will start and run fine as long as the ballast resistor is bypassed, which results in a continuous 12 volts to the coil and distributor.

Powermaster Tech Service says "it's probably OK to bypass the ballast resistor as long as the R terminal diode wire is used".

Lectric Limited Tech help says "the ballast resistor MUST BE USED in order to avoid damage to the coil and the electronic ignition".

As I see it, my current options are:
1. Use the system as is with the ballast resistor bypassed and run the risk of damaging the coil and / or electronic ignition.

2. Convert back to a points type distributor and put the ballast resistor back in the circuit.

3. Hope someone here has experienced this same problem and they figured out how to get it to work.

As always, I'm open to any and all suggestions / advice and I appreciate everyone's input.

Thanks,

Rex

 

Have you actually measured this with a voltmeter?Sounds like you may have more than one resistor in the start or run cicuit.

 

Rex,

Measure the voltage at the coil when the engine is being cranked with and without the ballast resistor in line.

Also, it may be that the ballast resistor is in the wrong line to the coil. When cranking, the solenoid should allow a full 12 volts to the coil. Once the engine starts, the connection in the solenoid is opened and the voltage is supplied through the ballast resistor. If the ballast resistor is installed in the wire coming from the solenoid, it will drop the voltage to the coil during cranking.

Tom

 

Did you check your ballast resistor and make sure it is not open circuit?

There should be no reason why you couldn't run the system without a ballast resistor (i.e. jumped) as long as you have upgraded your coil to the newer specs that allow 12v (actually more like 14.1 when the running with the alternator charging) operation. The old coils were subject to overheating if run continuously at the higher current. GM put a ballast resistor in the run circuit to reduce current and save on point wear. The R terminal on the solenoid feed 12 volts to the system during starting for more reliable starts. $22 dollars for a diode and a piece of wire sounds a little steep to me..... they must have seen you coming. My mini starter doesn't even have an R terminal so I run the ignition system without ballast.
One more thing, I can't imagine an electronic pointless ignition system designed to run at 12v (actually higer) during starting but be subject to burnout during running. It's a piece of crap if that's the case.
Bottom line, If it were me, I would upgrade the coil and dump the ballast resistor. That would provide better spark performance anyway. I say all this without knowing what that electronic circuit is in the electronic module, so there is a risk that who ever designed it may not know his azz from first base.




Bullshark

 

I didnt think that you are supposed to use a ballast resistor with their system.

 

I THOUGHT any aftermarket electronic dist system used full battery/alt system power for main power, and that old resistor wire was control to turn that system on/off....like my old MSD the way I recall it anyway....

 

There are breakerless systems that are designed to "plug-n-play" with a ballast resistor/resistor wire system. You just need to know whether yours is a "direct" install with your existing (resistor type) wiring or whether a full 12v is to be supplied to your electronic module. If 12vdc must be supplied to your electronic module, you will have to replace your coil with one designed for full 12vdc supply [continuous].

If your starter solenoid has both "R" & "S" terminals, you need to measure the voltage on the "S" terminal when your ignition switch is in the "start" position. If you don't see 12v between that terminal and ground, your solenoid is defective.

 

Did you buy Limited Lectric #38131? If so the diagram shows full 12 volts from the ignition switch. No ballast resistor and no resistor wire. PG.

 

All areas have been mentioned and I would also have to believe that the system would not reguire a ballast resistor and resistance wire. All of these parts that you purchased should be have been designed and upgraded to current technology and should work on 12 volts+ while running.
"DUB"

 

OK.............thanks for all the input. Rather than attempt to reply to each one individually, here is what I can say after some checking.

Yes, the breakerless conversion is Lectric Limited's PART #38131. When I spoke with their technical guy yesterday (Greg), he initially didn't want to discuss my problem due to my having a Powermaster starter that did not have the "R" terminal on it (plus he stated that he knew nothing about those starters). But when I told him that I had spent a fair amount of $$$$ on Lectric Limited's breakerless conversion, and I asked him point blank if " he would help or not", he reluctantly agreed (so much for their tech support). He emphatically stated that the breakerless kit required 7 - 9 volts and the ballast resistor MUST be in the circuit.

I just checked voltage at the + side of the coil and got 9.32 volts while cranking the engine and with the ballast resistor connected. Voltage increased to 9.76 with the resistor bypassed. Not sure why such a minimal difference unless that "expensive" R terminal diode wire (still in the circuit) would account for the difference. I was really expecting to see 12 + volts.

Further opinions / suggestions? Should I just upgrade to coil and leave the ballast resistor disconnected? If so, what coil is recommended?

Thanks to all.

Rex

 

The LectricLimited gizmo apparently works on less than 12v. but can still be fed with 12v direct. But, your existing coil is designed to use with the stock harness. I'd say you either need to use that diode in the circuit or feed it will 12v and buy a 12v-capable coil.

 

The ballast resistor in the ignition system on the 1967 gm p/n 1957154 is a 1.8 ohm resistor which should drop the voltage to the primary coil after start up from 12 volts to 6-8 volts. This was done to extend the life of the points. Thus the only time the coil is getting a direct 12 volts is during start up. (From the R post).

When using the aftermarket ignition systems I've always by-passed the ignition resistor, you can not run dropped voltage to the multi wire systems.

But. . . as Greg told you, the Lectric Limited system is designed to run on the lower voltage and utilizes a one wire system to emulate the original appearance of a non modified car. The Lectric Limited system should be compatible with the stock coil, starter and ballast resistor. The kit from electric limited states it will run as low as 6 volts which would fall in the mix of the stock ballast resistor. I’m not sure what would happen to it if you ran direct 12 volts consistently.

I think what is causing your problem is exactly what Greg was afraid of, you are mixing components. BullShark might have the best idea, but I’m not sure if the LL kit will run continuously at 12 volts with out messing it up. I’ve not seen the schematic on this kit but I’m sure that Greg is telling you this for a reason (I’m sure he’s seen the schematic). It was designed to run as a replacement hidden kit to keep the cars original in appearance and function. (Thus, designed to run on the lowered voltage).

You might want to consider running a Pertronix or compatible two or three wire kit.

Willcox Inc.

 

Expensive R terminal diode ? Can you explain what that is and how it connects ? You must be using it because you dont have an R terminal on the starter.

 

I'd like the answer to that too!
DR L-88 I went to the link you posted, clicked on "Conversion(update)Kits". Found 38131 and clicked on "More Details and Features". The diagram near the bottom shows no resistors. Text says to use a coil with 1.2 to 1.8 Ohms. Text also says can be used down to 6 volts and up to 8 Amps. 69427 went into much detail yesterday about "Current" vs "Volts".

Seems to me that your unit will work with or without and resistors.
Am I right or wrong? PG.

 

The module will work with either feed voltage. But your coil will have to match the voltage level you choose to use.

 

Probably used to protect electronic modules from the inductive voltage kick (spike) of the starter solenoid. It would be connected with the cathode terminal to the coil so as to be forward biased and allow 12v to the coil terminal. BTW don't forget that there will be a ~.6v drop across the diode. It may also be there to protect against possible/accidental short to ground.

Bullshark

P.S. I don't use a diode. The module should be designed to withstand the noisy environment of the automobile ignition system

 

The coil doesn't give a damn what the system voltage is. Period. All it cares about is the CURRENT going through it.

 

I'm assuming its connecting from the pos terminal of the coil to the purple wire S terminal on the starter solenoid-is that correct ?

 

I am assuming that also

 

OK here I go getting myself in trouble again trying to engineer. If the Lecrtic Limited module is supposed to be fed using the factory resistor wire couldn’t you use a simple relay “switched” by the purple S term wire and feed the pos term of the coil through the original yellow R term wire ? Just hide the simple relay down around the starter ? Just a thought !
Don't be too hard on me.