Motor Oil tests
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
There is no way you and I will ever agree on anything in this post. I have my opinions, have stated my reasons and posted extensive test results and some real world examples to back them up. You have posted nothing except your opinion. You could have 20 testimonials to the contrary and still argue that Amsoil or Mobil 1 don't provide any benefits over a generic dyno oil with the same API rating. I am done with this thread since I have no credibility. Your right, I am wrong. Gone!
Last edited by 63mako; Oct 23, 2009 at 08:04 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Well, if you want to take your ball and go home that's fine.
If you knew your engineering a little better, you'd know that the cars that do run synthetic (especially turbo'd and supercharged cars) need it for the extra head room for resistance to oil 'coking' in hot spots, nothing to do with lubrication.
This capability of synthetics is not required for SBC or BBC Corvettes as they never, ever run anywhere near that hot. Either engine version would have seized long before the capabilities of regular oil would have been exhausted.
If you knew your engineering a little better, you'd know that the cars that do run synthetic (especially turbo'd and supercharged cars) need it for the extra head room for resistance to oil 'coking' in hot spots, nothing to do with lubrication.
This capability of synthetics is not required for SBC or BBC Corvettes as they never, ever run anywhere near that hot. Either engine version would have seized long before the capabilities of regular oil would have been exhausted.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
Don't leave now 63mako, he asked for real world independent proof and a link to hundreds of analysis was provided for just about any type of oil ran in just about any vehicle made but that was not to his liking (didn't support his view) so then he asked for independent results and you provided the ASTM which is known for the standardized testing methods for the lube oil industry and that was not good enough (didn't support his view) so lets see what proof he can provide that will support his view, other than his life experiences, in his words
"real world long term test by unbiased consumers, with a sufficient number of data points that a reasonable trend can be seen"
later
"real world long term test by unbiased consumers, with a sufficient number of data points that a reasonable trend can be seen"
later
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
To quote myself:
"real world long term test by unbiased consumers, with a sufficient number of data points that a reasonable trend can be seen"
I've clearly asked for one thing and one thing only- field data.
No labs tests please.
No marketing BS.
No 'well if todays super cars run it, that's proof that it's better' misguided logic.
No 'I've used it for a month and nothing bad happened so it's better' silliness.
Field data. Show me results from actual users that consistently show that Brand X makes engines last longer than Brand Y. What's so difficult about that- if there's such a clear and obvious advantage?
"real world long term test by unbiased consumers, with a sufficient number of data points that a reasonable trend can be seen"
I've clearly asked for one thing and one thing only- field data.
No labs tests please.
No marketing BS.
No 'well if todays super cars run it, that's proof that it's better' misguided logic.
No 'I've used it for a month and nothing bad happened so it's better' silliness.
Field data. Show me results from actual users that consistently show that Brand X makes engines last longer than Brand Y. What's so difficult about that- if there's such a clear and obvious advantage?
Pro
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 629
Likes: 6
From: columbus ms
team chevelle has a small data pool with cars running regular oil s high zinc oils. high zinc oils had a 90 percent cam break in success rate. regular oils with low level zinc had a 70 percnt cam break in survival rate. think thats pretty real world test. not sure if any synthetic oils were used during the tests. not sure if it applies here but just passing it along.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 629
Likes: 6
From: columbus ms
also, i just ordered the summit high zinc motor oil. 1800 ppm zinc for my solid ft cam 489 motor. 5.99 per quart but i will pay it since i don't won't to chance my new very expensive 489 stroker. most regular oils are in the 600 to 700 ppm range. flat tappet cams need at a minimum of 1200 ppm zinc.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
team chevelle has a small data pool with cars running regular oil s high zinc oils. high zinc oils had a 90 percent cam break in success rate. regular oils with low level zinc had a 70 percnt cam break in survival rate. think thats pretty real world test. not sure if any synthetic oils were used during the tests. not sure if it applies here but just passing it along.
There's plenty of documentation discussing the decreasing level of zinc in motor oils and an increasing number of owners with similar complaints. The standard synthetics have also decreased tjhe amount of zinc FWIW.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 629
Likes: 6
From: columbus ms
that thread was a real eye opener for me. i had no idea i was killing my cam using regular oil. i will be using the summit high zinc oil from now own. 1800 ppm zinc. recommended minimum zinc levels are 1200. basically the zinc is what protects your flat tappet lifters. since most newer engines use rollers now from the factory the high level of zinc is not needed. what is the zinc level in the amsoil 63 mako? the chevelle folks did not test the higher end synthetics.
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Drifting
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,879
Likes: 38
From: Los Gatos CA
From my un-scientific, web based research: The sweet spot for zink is 1200ppm, with 1400ppm being the upper limit. If you run higher valve spring pressures, it is more critical. For my stock 68 L36 and 65 442, the Rotella T with 1200ppm is a good choice. I believe the synthetics are better at the upper limits, especially at extreme upper limits (which should be controlled by coolant). Synthetics are great; I run Mobil1 in my commuter every-day Acura. Run what you like and enjoy your cars. Again, just my 2 cents. I appreciate all comments and opinions. This is a fun thread; I hope my posts haven't made anyone blow a head gasket...
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Don't leave now 63mako, he asked for real world independent proof and a link to hundreds of analysis was provided for just about any type of oil ran in just about any vehicle made but that was not to his liking (didn't support his view) so then he asked for independent results and you provided the ASTM which is known for the standardized testing methods for the lube oil industry and that was not good enough (didn't support his view) so lets see what proof he can provide that will support his view, other than his life experiences, in his words
"real world long term test by unbiased consumers, with a sufficient number of data points that a reasonable trend can be seen"
later
"real world long term test by unbiased consumers, with a sufficient number of data points that a reasonable trend can be seen"
later
From my un-scientific, web based research: The sweet spot for zink is 1200ppm, with 1400ppm being the upper limit. If you run higher valve spring pressures, it is more critical. For my stock 68 L36 and 65 442, the Rotella T with 1200ppm is a good choice. I believe the synthetics are better at the upper limits, especially at extreme upper limits (which should be controlled by coolant). Synthetics are great; I run Mobil1 in my commuter every-day Acura. Run what you like and enjoy your cars. Again, just my 2 cents. I appreciate all comments and opinions. This is a fun thread; I hope my posts haven't made anyone blow a head gasket...
You are correct that more is not better as far as zink levels go. Increased bearing wear is one consequence of running to much zink.
that thread was a real eye opener for me. i had no idea i was killing my cam using regular oil. i will be using the summit high zinc oil from now own. 1800 ppm zinc. recommended minimum zinc levels are 1200. basically the zinc is what protects your flat tappet lifters. since most newer engines use rollers now from the factory the high level of zinc is not needed. what is the zinc level in the amsoil 63 mako? the chevelle folks did not test the higher end synthetics.
This is the Amsoil I would use in a flat tappet engine.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/amo.aspx
Phosphorous 1265 ppm
Zink 1378 ppm
Independantly tested by Blackstone labs.
This is the only 10W-40 I have been able to find that has the correct amount of Zink to protect flat tappet cams with high spring pressures.
Subdriver is a supporting vendor on the forum and when my supply runs low I will order from him.
Here is an intersting read:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/api_mo...ifications.htm
and some links.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/synthetic_motor_oil.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf
http://www.aa1car.com/library/motor_oil_additives.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm
Last edited by 63mako; Oct 24, 2009 at 05:58 PM.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 387
Likes: 2
Is there any need or advantage of high ZDDP oils in a Gen I SBC with a hydraulic roller cam?
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Yes. They are anti wear and extreme pressure additives that the EPA has forced the oil companies to reduce for emissions reasons and to save modern catalytic convertors. This is why racing oils have increased levels of these additives
http://www.aa1car.com/library/motor_oil_additives.htm
Last edited by 63mako; Oct 24, 2009 at 04:28 PM.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 387
Likes: 2
I am done arguing but you asked me for information so here you go.
Yes. They are anti wear and extreme pressure additives that the EPA has forced the oil companies to reduce for emissions reasons and to save modern catylitic convertors. This is why racing oils have increased levels of these additives
http://www.aa1car.com/library/motor_oil_additives.htm
Yes. They are anti wear and extreme pressure additives that the EPA has forced the oil companies to reduce for emissions reasons and to save modern catylitic convertors. This is why racing oils have increased levels of these additives
http://www.aa1car.com/library/motor_oil_additives.htm
Racer
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
63 mako,
One of your comments made reference to 60’s motors not making it to 100K miles without burning oil. First, any engine that actually made it to 100K basically by default became a “kid’s car”. When you got to the gas station, there was a good chance it was a “fill the oil, check the gas” situation.
Thanks for posting the links, it is appreciated.
One of your comments made reference to 60’s motors not making it to 100K miles without burning oil. First, any engine that actually made it to 100K basically by default became a “kid’s car”. When you got to the gas station, there was a good chance it was a “fill the oil, check the gas” situation.
Thanks for posting the links, it is appreciated.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 235
From: Rockledge FL
i love oil threads, it doenst matter what vehicle you are talking about. the words are always the same. i would go out on a limb that as long as the oil has plenty of zinc in it then it will be fine because chances are 99% of the people here will change the oil before it is even half way at its service life.
everyone always feels that their brand is best and every other brand is wrong, insert the word religion for oil and we might have a jihad or two on our hands.
all of this controversy is the reason i put a roller cam in mine when i did a rebuild.
everyone always feels that their brand is best and every other brand is wrong, insert the word religion for oil and we might have a jihad or two on our hands.
all of this controversy is the reason i put a roller cam in mine when i did a rebuild.
Pro
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 567
Likes: 5
From: bradenton fl
My question regarding the use of summits oil.
If 1200ppm of zinc is considered optimal? Would having 1800ppm of zinc be considered excessive and cause excessive or greater wear on parts?
As would having not enough ppm of zinc?
Remember reading something about that awhile back.
And i would be talking about a older flat tappet cam. not todays rollers.
If 1200ppm of zinc is considered optimal? Would having 1800ppm of zinc be considered excessive and cause excessive or greater wear on parts?
As would having not enough ppm of zinc?
Remember reading something about that awhile back.
And i would be talking about a older flat tappet cam. not todays rollers.
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
My question regarding the use of summits oil.
If 1200ppm of zinc is considered optimal? Would having 1800ppm of zinc be considered excessive and cause excessive or greater wear on parts?
As would having not enough ppm of zinc?
Remember reading something about that awhile back.
And i would be talking about a older flat tappet cam. not todays rollers.
If 1200ppm of zinc is considered optimal? Would having 1800ppm of zinc be considered excessive and cause excessive or greater wear on parts?
As would having not enough ppm of zinc?
Remember reading something about that awhile back.
And i would be talking about a older flat tappet cam. not todays rollers.
The summit oil is the only 10W-40 for street use I have seen other than the Amsoil with enough Zinc for flat tappet engines. It is my understanding 1200 PPM is the minimum for a flat tappet. You are right, more is not better but 1800 ppm is probably not a major issue. Might want that on a big solid flat tappet with fast ramps and heavy springs. Don't know the manufacturer of it or the additive package. I have seen some racing oils with well over 2000 PPM. That is probably not the best for a street engine.
That is why I like the Amsoil 10W-40 AMO. It is the right weight, right amount of zink and phosphorous, has the proper additives for street use in gasoline engines, provides excellent cold start protection and the synthetic is more resistant to viscosity breakdown. Just seems like everything else is a compromise in one way or another.
Last edited by 63mako; Oct 24, 2009 at 10:43 PM.
Intermediate
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: Saint Louis Missouri
I've heard that the best engine additive in the world is something called molybdenum. Anyone have any experience with it? Saw a demo (by a salesman, of course!) and the moly-coated parts retained friction resistance long after the oil drained away.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
Likes: 1
From: Winston-Salem NC
Thanks Mako!
I'm saving all this info on my 'puter!
I am done arguing but you asked me for information so here you go.
Yes. They are anti wear and extreme pressure additives that the EPA has forced the oil companies to reduce for emissions reasons and to save modern catalytic convertors. This is why racing oils have increased levels of these additives
http://www.aa1car.com/library/motor_oil_additives.htm
Yes. They are anti wear and extreme pressure additives that the EPA has forced the oil companies to reduce for emissions reasons and to save modern catalytic convertors. This is why racing oils have increased levels of these additives
http://www.aa1car.com/library/motor_oil_additives.htm