427cu or 540cu......
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,883
Likes: 124
From: Lubbock TX
panic, go to www.sunsetracecraft.com and take your pick. They'll be glad to build you a pump gas monster, I'd even look into some of the smaller Brodix 3-Xtras for it. Theirs is $14,000, gives you a grand toward shipping.
Amazing that this mill runs the same cam as GM's hydraulic roller 572 and makes more hp than the solid roller 572!
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
Build it as big and strong as you can or you'll get tired of getting your a$$ handed to you by those that do!
Amazing that this mill runs the same cam as GM's hydraulic roller 572 and makes more hp than the solid roller 572!
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
Build it as big and strong as you can or you'll get tired of getting your a$$ handed to you by those that do!
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,864
Likes: 960
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
I've been thinking to replace my fearless 575hp 406ci SB engine with an upgraded one, can't make up my mind...
Here are two 750 hp option from ''American Speed'' engine builder (I have one of their 575hp 406 SB since a few years now and never had a prob...I reckon they're top guys hands down...), one is a supercharged 406 SB, the other is an ''atmospheric'' 540 BB...
1) 406 CID Brutus 750 Supercharged engine
Dart engine block, Comp Cams roller hyd. roller cam, 210 CNC comp. ported aluminum cylinder heads, ASE 4340 steel crankshaft, ASE 4340 6" steel rods, JE 8.0 comp. pistons, Mallory dist, alum. water pump, Pro Systems blower carbs...
750 hp $16,695.00
2) 540 CID Brutus 750 engine
AFR aluminum cyl. heads, Dart iron block, Comp roller cam, ASE 4340 steel crank and rods, Canton oil pan, JE 10.5 forged pistons, Pro Systems 950 carb, Mallory dist...
750 hp $14,995.00
3) Same as above but with alu Brodix block....17.895 usd.
All above price are for long blk engines, you need to add another 2.500 usd on top of that to make them full and ready to go...
Which one would you choose for my application?
My C3 has been lightened down to 2.750lbs so lightness is one of my top of the line priorities.
(...and sorry for the small hijack...
)
Here are two 750 hp option from ''American Speed'' engine builder (I have one of their 575hp 406 SB since a few years now and never had a prob...I reckon they're top guys hands down...), one is a supercharged 406 SB, the other is an ''atmospheric'' 540 BB...
1) 406 CID Brutus 750 Supercharged engine
Dart engine block, Comp Cams roller hyd. roller cam, 210 CNC comp. ported aluminum cylinder heads, ASE 4340 steel crankshaft, ASE 4340 6" steel rods, JE 8.0 comp. pistons, Mallory dist, alum. water pump, Pro Systems blower carbs...
750 hp $16,695.00
2) 540 CID Brutus 750 engine
AFR aluminum cyl. heads, Dart iron block, Comp roller cam, ASE 4340 steel crank and rods, Canton oil pan, JE 10.5 forged pistons, Pro Systems 950 carb, Mallory dist...
750 hp $14,995.00
3) Same as above but with alu Brodix block....17.895 usd.
All above price are for long blk engines, you need to add another 2.500 usd on top of that to make them full and ready to go...
Which one would you choose for my application?
My C3 has been lightened down to 2.750lbs so lightness is one of my top of the line priorities.
(...and sorry for the small hijack...
)If you're going to go with a bigblock, go with the aluminum version. I've always respected your drive for less weight, versus more displacement. As we all know, displacement doesn't get you around a corner quicker.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,506
Likes: 139
From: Butler Pa
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,864
Likes: 960
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
I'm just running a "gas sipping" 427. I've found that it takes a ton of horsepower on the straights to make up for having to tippy-toe around the corners. My whole focus the last several years has been to pull weight out of the car to increase corner speeds. I rarely get outpulled in the straights with my car, but I have had to work like a dog on the weight and suspension issues to try to duplicate the cornering speeds of lighter cars.
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Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
It's been my experience that the guys with the monster displacement motors rarely set foot on a road course. Whether it's an overheating issue or the inability to corner fast with that much weight up front, I don't know.
I'm just running a "gas sipping" 427.
And that's a consideration, as our good gas is about $5 US a gal!
I'm just running a "gas sipping" 427.
And that's a consideration, as our good gas is about $5 US a gal!
I'm also running a "gas sipping" 434 ci small block. Out on the highways/city 25 gallon tank I've averaged 18.6. So I would guess near 20 open road if you keep below 85 mph.
CI has the pure TQ advantage. but I believe that 441 - 454 ci older style small block or modern LSX 472 ci N/A or even supercharged would be a hard combo to beat.
It is not just the total weight of the car it's where it is front to rear. I'm getting very close to 40% front and 60 % rear. Braking is immensely enhanced and putting power to ground out of corner can take on full throttle sooner.
I with only 434 ci and mid 600 hp had real traction issues at slower speeds. This would only be compounded by additional power. At higher speeds I wish I had a blower or TT's. But anyway my rear street tires are 335/17 and the cost of the motor is just a small part of the price. The drive train, wheels, brakes, roll cage.........
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 367
Likes: 1
From: Christchurch Canterbury
My avatar is an example of one of the big displacement BBC's that i work on burning on it's way around the road course.
I'm also running a "gas sipping" 434 ci small block. Out on the highways/city 25 gallon tank I've averaged 18.6. So I would guess near 20 open road if you keep below 85 mph.
CI has the pure TQ advantage. but I believe that 441 - 454 ci older style small block or modern LSX 472 ci N/A or even supercharged would be a hard combo to beat.
It is not just the total weight of the car it's where it is front to rear. I'm getting very close to 40% front and 60 % rear. Braking is immensely enhanced and putting power to ground out of corner can take on full throttle sooner.
I with only 434 ci and mid 600 hp had real traction issues at slower speeds. This would only be compounded by additional power. At higher speeds I wish I had a blower or TT's. But anyway my rear street tires are 335/17 and the cost of the motor is just a small part of the price. The drive train, wheels, brakes, roll cage.........
I'm also running a "gas sipping" 434 ci small block. Out on the highways/city 25 gallon tank I've averaged 18.6. So I would guess near 20 open road if you keep below 85 mph.
CI has the pure TQ advantage. but I believe that 441 - 454 ci older style small block or modern LSX 472 ci N/A or even supercharged would be a hard combo to beat.
It is not just the total weight of the car it's where it is front to rear. I'm getting very close to 40% front and 60 % rear. Braking is immensely enhanced and putting power to ground out of corner can take on full throttle sooner.
I with only 434 ci and mid 600 hp had real traction issues at slower speeds. This would only be compounded by additional power. At higher speeds I wish I had a blower or TT's. But anyway my rear street tires are 335/17 and the cost of the motor is just a small part of the price. The drive train, wheels, brakes, roll cage.........
I love the circuit tracks, thats the most common racing here in New Zealand. This car I am keeping as a pure road car ( perhaps a few track day laps).
Only part of the above comment was mine the gas cost part ( must have buggered up the post)
434 sounds like a fun combo, and I agree unless you can go all alloy and afford really good gear, SBC is the way to go for road race.
I had a few laps around our local track (www.canterburycarclub.co.nz)
in a alloy engined 1970 Camaro 540cu track car. The owner said it was making around 800hp, it was real addictive. Even with 300mm wide slicks top gear traction was limited!, but high on drive train maintainance.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Yeah, went the road race route with my 70 camaro, I know what you mean its on thing after another, and it adds up, in the end you have a very limited use vehicle that has huge running costs.
I love the circuit tracks, thats the most common racing here in New Zealand. This car I am keeping as a pure road car ( perhaps a few track day laps).
Only part of the above comment was mine the gas cost part ( must have buggered up the post)
434 sounds like a fun combo, and I agree unless you can go all alloy and afford really good gear, SBC is the way to go for road race.
I had a few laps around our local track (www.canterburycarclub.co.nz)
in a alloy engined 1970 Camaro 540cu track car. The owner said it was making around 800hp, it was real addictive. Even with 300mm wide slicks top gear traction was limited!, but high on drive train maintainance.
I love the circuit tracks, thats the most common racing here in New Zealand. This car I am keeping as a pure road car ( perhaps a few track day laps).
Only part of the above comment was mine the gas cost part ( must have buggered up the post)
434 sounds like a fun combo, and I agree unless you can go all alloy and afford really good gear, SBC is the way to go for road race.
I had a few laps around our local track (www.canterburycarclub.co.nz)
in a alloy engined 1970 Camaro 540cu track car. The owner said it was making around 800hp, it was real addictive. Even with 300mm wide slicks top gear traction was limited!, but high on drive train maintainance.
As power and tires goes up i experienced total brake failure within 2 laps on my 79 Vette even using 600 degree brake fluid. Then i had to install a few thousand dollars worth of brakes that only fit in 17 and larger wheels. Then the front rotors were only lasting about two hours of track time. so I had to ad big air ducting and less abrasive pads. It never ends. So I've about quit road racing my Vette and only drive real race cars or higher end cars that people bring with them to driving schools where I'm an instructor.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,864
Likes: 960
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
My avatar is an example of one of the big displacement BBC's that i work on burning on it's way around the road course. I was referring to Corvettes in my earlier comment. Just out of curiosity have you ever witnessed any "over 454 cubic inch" Corvettes at any of your track days? I'm 99% sure I have never seen one.I'm also running a "gas sipping" 434 ci small block. Out on the highways/city 25 gallon tank I've averaged 18.6. So I would guess near 20 open road if you keep below 85 mph.
CI has the pure TQ advantage. but I believe that 441 - 454 ci older style small block or modern LSX 472 ci N/A or even supercharged would be a hard combo to beat.
It is not just the total weight of the car it's where it is front to rear. I believe I mentioned that in an earlier post. I'm getting very close to 40% front and 60 % rear. Braking is immensely enhanced and putting power to ground out of corner can take on full throttle sooner.
I with only 434 ci and mid 600 hp had real traction issues at slower speeds. This would only be compounded by additional power. At higher speeds I wish I had a blower or TT's. But anyway my rear street tires are 335/17 and the cost of the motor is just a small part of the price. The drive train, wheels, brakes, roll cage.........
CI has the pure TQ advantage. but I believe that 441 - 454 ci older style small block or modern LSX 472 ci N/A or even supercharged would be a hard combo to beat.
It is not just the total weight of the car it's where it is front to rear. I believe I mentioned that in an earlier post. I'm getting very close to 40% front and 60 % rear. Braking is immensely enhanced and putting power to ground out of corner can take on full throttle sooner.
I with only 434 ci and mid 600 hp had real traction issues at slower speeds. This would only be compounded by additional power. At higher speeds I wish I had a blower or TT's. But anyway my rear street tires are 335/17 and the cost of the motor is just a small part of the price. The drive train, wheels, brakes, roll cage.........
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 367
Likes: 1
From: Christchurch Canterbury
Yeah, went the road race route with my 70 camaro, I know what you mean its on thing after another, and it adds up, in the end you have a very limited use vehicle that has huge running costs.
I love the circuit tracks, thats the most common racing here in New Zealand. This car I am keeping as a pure road car ( perhaps a few track day laps).
Only part of the above comment was mine the gas cost part ( must have buggered up the post)
434 sounds like a fun combo, and I agree unless you can go all alloy and afford really good gear, SBC is the way to go for road race.
I had a few laps around our local track (www.canterburycarclub.co.nz)
in a alloy engined 1970 Camaro 540cu track car. The owner said it was making around 800hp, it was real addictive. Even with 300mm wide slicks top gear traction was limited!, but high on drive train maintainance.
I love the circuit tracks, thats the most common racing here in New Zealand. This car I am keeping as a pure road car ( perhaps a few track day laps).
Only part of the above comment was mine the gas cost part ( must have buggered up the post)
434 sounds like a fun combo, and I agree unless you can go all alloy and afford really good gear, SBC is the way to go for road race.
I had a few laps around our local track (www.canterburycarclub.co.nz)
in a alloy engined 1970 Camaro 540cu track car. The owner said it was making around 800hp, it was real addictive. Even with 300mm wide slicks top gear traction was limited!, but high on drive train maintainance.
Bruce Mclaren ( Of the McLaren CanAm cars)was a New Zealander, so strong following of CanAms and F5000 cars.
Nothing beats the thunder as those Big block injected monsters run around the track. If finances ever allow I will own one!!
Here a link to the this years festival
http://www.canterburycarclub.co.nz/p...tro%202011.pdf
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
My co-worker owns a 72 496 which raced GT1 back in the day and is now a BP1 or VP3 SCCA has always had kind of a weight per ci class rule with a top out weight which would favor bigger than 431 ci motors
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,864
Likes: 960
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Yes, every time I go to the track the majority of real racing from back in the day c-3's with big blocks are always 496 to 509 ci big block chevys. The 4.250 strokers cranks were already out in the late 60's Very few if any of those cars that said 427 ci were really just 427 ci.
My co-worker owns a 72 496 which raced GT1 back in the day and is now a BP1 or VP3 SCCA has always had kind of a weight per ci class rule with a top out weight which would favor bigger than 431 ci motors
My co-worker owns a 72 496 which raced GT1 back in the day and is now a BP1 or VP3 SCCA has always had kind of a weight per ci class rule with a top out weight which would favor bigger than 431 ci motors
Just my experience. YMMV.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 753
Likes: 0
I'm with 69427
being european and so used to relatively small displacement engines-hi revving, I don't agree with the US trend of really big displacement-hi TQ at least for fast road driving.
my experience with my l88 427 on the street tells me that it's very difficult to use that power even if i don't have big numbers and due to the Zl1 cam i have a very progressive and easy throttle response. I would invest the extra $$$ of a huge displacement engine for saving weight ( Zl1 block) or suspensions-chassis-handling works.
btw Big Blocks are cool, so i wont go for a SBC 427 even if could be a more clever solution when choosing the 427 ci limit
being european and so used to relatively small displacement engines-hi revving, I don't agree with the US trend of really big displacement-hi TQ at least for fast road driving.
my experience with my l88 427 on the street tells me that it's very difficult to use that power even if i don't have big numbers and due to the Zl1 cam i have a very progressive and easy throttle response. I would invest the extra $$$ of a huge displacement engine for saving weight ( Zl1 block) or suspensions-chassis-handling works.
btw Big Blocks are cool, so i wont go for a SBC 427 even if could be a more clever solution when choosing the 427 ci limit
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
You keep straying away from the initial street legal/licensed point of this thread. I'm very familiar with what a lot of money and work can do with a single purpose (ie: race) vehicle. I'll ask again, have you ever witnessed any licensed Corvettes at track days running anything bigger than a 454? I don't claim to have run at every region of the country, but I have never seen anyone advocating these big displacement big blocks run their cars at anyplace but a drag strip.
Just my experience. YMMV.
Just my experience. YMMV.
Out of the total production run very few % were even produced as big blocks. Very few owners install big ci motors unless they are going pro-street or drag racing. Out of all these big block cars very few would be willing to take their pride and joy relatively stock Vette out on the track and be willing to take a chance of crashing it away.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,864
Likes: 960
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
You are correct Out of the total production run very few % were even produced as big blocks. Very few owners install big ci motors unless they are going pro-street or drag racing. Out of all these big block cars very few would be willing to take their pride and joy relatively stock Vette out on the track and be willing to take a chance of crashing it away.
Out of the total production run very few % were even produced as big blocks. Very few owners install big ci motors unless they are going pro-street or drag racing. Out of all these big block cars very few would be willing to take their pride and joy relatively stock Vette out on the track and be willing to take a chance of crashing it away.I've been running my (street legal) '69 on track/test&tune days every chance I get for the last 25 years. That's the prime reason I choose to own a sports car. I've never understood the point of having a vehicle with hp/disc brakes/IRS/etc, and only use it (as one of CF's more colorful characters once said) to drive to the local 7/11 for beer and ****.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 40,375
Likes: 788
From: Redondo Beach, California
One thing I really like about BB's is their sound. Their exhaust pulses have a WWII fighter plane like sound. They just sound like power, especially when up close to them you can also feel the the exhaust pulses. In terms of getting the most HP per cubic inch, an engine needs to start operating at a really high rpm, but to me the high rpm sound gets to be a turn off as the engine begins to sound like a chain saw engine.
I liked to listen to my L88 clone engine idle. The pulses where loud and booming, but they didn't sound like the exhaust pulses, say, from a low performance BB running with out mufflers. As I recall the L88 clone had an idle that sounded like tss-Boom, tss-Boom. It didn't sound like a lower performance BB without mufflers.
I liked to listen to my L88 clone engine idle. The pulses where loud and booming, but they didn't sound like the exhaust pulses, say, from a low performance BB running with out mufflers. As I recall the L88 clone had an idle that sounded like tss-Boom, tss-Boom. It didn't sound like a lower performance BB without mufflers.