Starter/Engine Problems
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 15
From: Confusion
Starter/Engine Problems
I have a problem with knocking out the drive clutch in starters on my blown 355 engine. I have discovered that with the coil unhooked engine spins fine, starter sounds normal. But once coil is hooked up the engine will spin and the clutch drive will start to make noise, either right away or after awhile of turning engine over. Timing is set at 16 degrees BTDC as recommended by blower manufacturer. It does have MSD ignition. Once engine starts it runs fine, no missing or anything. Seems the engine is putting reverse drag on the starter gear as it is trying to start. Also was told maybe bad head gasket with coolant going into cylinder causing drag, but wouldn't that also affect it with coil unhooked?
Any clues where to look, I have been told the MSD ignitions go bad and cause firing problems, but like I said once started runs fine.........................PLEASE HELP!!!!!!
Thanks.................................. ..Bruce
Any clues where to look, I have been told the MSD ignitions go bad and cause firing problems, but like I said once started runs fine.........................PLEASE HELP!!!!!!
Thanks.................................. ..Bruce
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 15
From: Confusion
The gear spins and comes out to engage the flexplate, and it sounds like it is banging against it, shakes the whole car (solid engine mounts). When I take it back to the starter place he spins the gear by hand and says it is bad, too much play in it. Seems the engine is spinning back on it as it is spinning in the direction it is supposed to spin, giving the clutch assembly of the starter too much resistance. It is not misaligned either, like I said it spins fine with no spark involved.
As for the timing, I called the blower manufacturer and was told any where from 16 to 24 degrees for timing. Since I use 93 pump gas I set it at 16 last June, haven't checked it since. I will check it this weekend after all the rain stops.
Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 16,528
Likes: 53
From: Dayton, Ohio
More questions. Is this the same starter,just different clutches ?
Is this a mini starter ?
Is the starter shimmed?
Do you have the brace on the front end of the starter ?
Solid square starter mounting on high compression engines is crucial. Some Delco type reman starters don't fit the block correctly and many of the minis don't. I've also seen quite a few blocks screwed up in the mounting area.
Is this a mini starter ?
Is the starter shimmed?
Do you have the brace on the front end of the starter ?
Solid square starter mounting on high compression engines is crucial. Some Delco type reman starters don't fit the block correctly and many of the minis don't. I've also seen quite a few blocks screwed up in the mounting area.
Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 16,528
Likes: 53
From: Dayton, Ohio
Roger,
The gear spins and comes out to engage the flexplate, and it sounds like it is banging against it, shakes the whole car (solid engine mounts). When I take it back to the starter place he spins the gear by hand and says it is bad, too much play in it. Seems the engine is spinning back on it as it is spinning in the direction it is supposed to spin, giving the clutch assembly of the starter too much resistance. It is not misaligned either, like I said it spins fine with no spark involved.
The gear spins and comes out to engage the flexplate, and it sounds like it is banging against it, shakes the whole car (solid engine mounts). When I take it back to the starter place he spins the gear by hand and says it is bad, too much play in it. Seems the engine is spinning back on it as it is spinning in the direction it is supposed to spin, giving the clutch assembly of the starter too much resistance. It is not misaligned either, like I said it spins fine with no spark involved.
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Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 16,528
Likes: 53
From: Dayton, Ohio
As though the crankshaft has too much end play and its actually moving into the clutch gear ?
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 15
From: Confusion
Not sure which MSD, box is under dash, haven't been able to look at it. The reverse idea was mine, the starter expert said it was an alignment thing. I have it shimmed with 2 shims, it is a mini GM type starter, the first 2 were the aftermarket mini starters. This new one is a mini that GM uses now. The block is a Dart block, I was wondering if that had anything to do with it. The starter in the car when I bought it was the big clunky factory type, that was making noise too.
Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 16,528
Likes: 53
From: Dayton, Ohio
You have a bunch of variables and I would have to lean towards what the starter guy says about it being an alignment problem. If the alignment is not correct and the gear is only going into the flex plate say half way but when the engine fires it goes all the way in and then has a hard time getting back out due to wedging I can see it damaging the clutch.
I think I would get my tools out and establish some square lines on the block in reference to the flexplate and then see if starter when bolted up lines up.
Are you using knurled bolts for mounting the starter ?
Some of these starters have too much play IMO when tightened down.
I think I would get my tools out and establish some square lines on the block in reference to the flexplate and then see if starter when bolted up lines up.
Are you using knurled bolts for mounting the starter ?
Some of these starters have too much play IMO when tightened down.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 15
From: Confusion
You have a bunch of variables and I would have to lean towards what the starter guy says about it being an alignment problem. If the alignment is not correct and the gear is only going into the flex plate say half way but when the engine fires it goes all the way in and then has a hard time getting back out due to wedging I can see it damaging the clutch.
I think I would get my tools out and establish some square lines on the block in reference to the flexplate and then see if starter when bolted up lines up.
Are you using knurled bolts for mounting the starter ?
Some of these starters have too much play IMO when tightened down.
I think I would get my tools out and establish some square lines on the block in reference to the flexplate and then see if starter when bolted up lines up.
Are you using knurled bolts for mounting the starter ?
Some of these starters have too much play IMO when tightened down.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,142
Likes: 54
From: Taylor Michigan
A trick when using a supercharger is to have a independent ignition switch and as the engine is rolling over for a few seconds cleaning the cylinders, then turn it on.....Or as suggested your way too much on initial lead at 16...the engine could be backing up and killing starter drives, your possibly lucky the nose of the starter survived and didn`t break as they usually do when they reverse ie, go backwards
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,506
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From: Butler Pa
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,349
Likes: 34
From: Porterville Ca
I would suspect timing. I've seen starter drives and nose cones broken due to timing concerns. Check for a spun balancer causing bad readings, stuck weights or advance, set timing with less advance just to test for knocking, remove msd if possible to eliminate it as a cause of your noise. Make sure plug wires for 5 &7 are well separated, they have been known to cross fire between the two, perhaps they are causing a problem when cranking...are all cylinders firing correctly, I've seen cars with crossed plug wires run and idle pretty good...
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 15
From: Confusion
Talked to an engine builder Fri, he asked if engine had a vacuum advance, I said no. He claims that if I have it set at 16 degrees that the motor is in retard mode when starting. I just had timing light on the engine, it was set at 16 and when revved did not move, so I set it at 30-32, engine runs fine. I shut it down and tried to start to see if starter worked better, WELL...ended up pushing it back into the garage, knocked the gear drive out of it, made all kinds of clattering and you could see pulley on blower trying to move. Mon I will take into and have them rebuild or I'll buy a new one and go from there.
Can anyone explain total advance and related items to me?
Can anyone explain total advance and related items to me?
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 15
From: Confusion
UPDATE!!! Spoke to the owner of the Performance shop who dynoed the engine, engine was dynoed at 38 degrees and pulled 650 hp. He told me the dist. advance was locked out, and I should set timing to 32 degrees, also should install the MSD device that retards the timing when starting, makes it much nicer for the starter when hot. Also I am replacing the flex plate with a better piece, was told by several shops that if I chewed 3 starters up the flex plate HAS to be bad also. I have also gotten the hi-torque mini starter GM Performance has for the 572 crate motor, got it at cost from my parts guy for just a tad more than the "girlie" starters (Dyno Shop guy's word) I was being given. Due to my job being eliminated it may be a month or so before I can report back on my installs..............................Br uce
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,506
Likes: 139
From: Butler Pa