Brake up grade advice
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2010
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Brake up grade advice
Getting ready to order new brakes for 1971. Looking at Wilwood kit with 13” front slotted rotors, 6 piston Calipers, and 12.9 rear rotors 4 piston calipers. Is the Thermlock upgrade worth it and if so do you need it on the front only or front and rear ? Looking at spirited street use and some track testing.
Opinions please
Opinions please
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 12
From: Kalispell MT
Is Thermlock the high temp ceramic pads?
I'll be installing the same Wilwood kits that I bought from VanSteel later this month on my '70, but I did not get the ceramic pads. I will not be track driving my car so I didn't see the need.
I'll be installing the same Wilwood kits that I bought from VanSteel later this month on my '70, but I did not get the ceramic pads. I will not be track driving my car so I didn't see the need.
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2010
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Thermlock
Looking at the spec sheet from Wilwood shows a liner of sort inside the caliper piston. These acts as a insulator to keep heat from transferring through the brake pad to the piston and in to the caliper as well as heating the brake fluid to a point that the brake efficiency is degraded. My question concerns the fact that most of the work from braking is done by the front brakes, do you need the same heat insulation on the rears or will the increased brake rotor diameter and alloy caliper be enough to handle the heat on the rears. GSKull has posted on this upgrade he and other racers my enlighten us further.
PS 1970 and 1971 LT1s are my favorite C3s my 1971 in stock form runs circles aroung my 1966 427 except in a straight line.
PS 1970 and 1971 LT1s are my favorite C3s my 1971 in stock form runs circles aroung my 1966 427 except in a straight line.
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,312
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From: Clearwater FL
The thermlock pistons are a good upgrade if you plan on tracking the car. You should also consider their high temp racing brake fluid and 2 sets of pads. One for the street and one for the track. Thermlocks would be a nice addition on the front calipers. I don't really see a need for a dual purpose car to use thermlock pistons on the rear. I wouldn't be affraid to run 2 different compounds front to rear either on those track days. Tire selection will be a factor here as well. Lots of pieces to the puzzle, you just need to find a direction you want to go and get the best for application.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
How serious R U about track time? It's all about how fast you are able to go as to whether you need a brake upgrade.
Like if you have an auto tranny, sub 383 ci, or under 450 hp you can problably get away with stock rotors and calipers with Hawk or some kind of carbon metalic pads and 580 - 600 degree rated brake fluid
But if you have boiled your 600 degree with better pads then it is time for the bigger front rotors with the "Thermloc" option. Thermloc is the same idea as our Vette J56 brakes with the titanium thermal block pistons. so much heat goes through the pad that it heats up the caliper pistons and boils the fluid.
You have to use at least 17 inch wheels and then why stop at 13 inch when 14's are about the same cost in your aluminum hat design two piece rotors.
I also added three inch air ducting on the superlite 4's with biggest pistons with BP-20 pads
http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/Catalogs/BrakePadCatalog.pdf
The rear can use stock stuff or for a weight savings the WilWood D-8 calipers
Like if you have an auto tranny, sub 383 ci, or under 450 hp you can problably get away with stock rotors and calipers with Hawk or some kind of carbon metalic pads and 580 - 600 degree rated brake fluid
But if you have boiled your 600 degree with better pads then it is time for the bigger front rotors with the "Thermloc" option. Thermloc is the same idea as our Vette J56 brakes with the titanium thermal block pistons. so much heat goes through the pad that it heats up the caliper pistons and boils the fluid.
You have to use at least 17 inch wheels and then why stop at 13 inch when 14's are about the same cost in your aluminum hat design two piece rotors.
I also added three inch air ducting on the superlite 4's with biggest pistons with BP-20 pads
http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/Catalogs/BrakePadCatalog.pdf
The rear can use stock stuff or for a weight savings the WilWood D-8 calipers
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Intermediate
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Thermloc upgrade
Thanks for the input.
The car has 17 x 9 and 17 x 9.5 wheels with 255 45 17 front and 285 40 17 with Michelins new PS2 A/S Plus on Vintage Wheel works 48s for street set up. I have not gotten dry track tires yet. Vintage Wheel Works will be making a new 18” 48 wheel this summer that I will go with. I will be using Van Steel offset trailing arms, narrowed spring, QA1 double adjustable and custom sway bar on the rear. Front is QA1 double adjustable semi coil over. Speed Direct alloy upper arms and Global West lowers.
Looks like the front caliper up grade with standard rears for starts.
The car has 17 x 9 and 17 x 9.5 wheels with 255 45 17 front and 285 40 17 with Michelins new PS2 A/S Plus on Vintage Wheel works 48s for street set up. I have not gotten dry track tires yet. Vintage Wheel Works will be making a new 18” 48 wheel this summer that I will go with. I will be using Van Steel offset trailing arms, narrowed spring, QA1 double adjustable and custom sway bar on the rear. Front is QA1 double adjustable semi coil over. Speed Direct alloy upper arms and Global West lowers.
Looks like the front caliper up grade with standard rears for starts.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2010
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Track setup
I am putting togeather the engine now. Going with Dart SHP 421 strocker. 3.875 x 4.155. AFR 210s ordered and on the way. I have not settled on the roller cam yet.
Trans is T600 with worked over 3.55 thirdmember and 3.5" halfshafts. All new hubs and bearings.
I am in southern califronia so most track time will be at willow springs later this year.
Trans is T600 with worked over 3.55 thirdmember and 3.5" halfshafts. All new hubs and bearings.
I am in southern califronia so most track time will be at willow springs later this year.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Thanks for the input.
The car has 17 x 9 and 17 x 9.5 wheels with 255 45 17 front and 285 40 17 with Michelins new PS2 A/S Plus on Vintage Wheel works 48s for street set up. I have not gotten dry track tires yet. Vintage Wheel Works will be making a new 18” 48 wheel this summer that I will go with. I will be using Van Steel offset trailing arms, narrowed spring, QA1 double adjustable and custom sway bar on the rear. Front is QA1 double adjustable semi coil over. Speed Direct alloy upper arms and Global West lowers.
Looks like the front caliper up grade with standard rears for starts.
The car has 17 x 9 and 17 x 9.5 wheels with 255 45 17 front and 285 40 17 with Michelins new PS2 A/S Plus on Vintage Wheel works 48s for street set up. I have not gotten dry track tires yet. Vintage Wheel Works will be making a new 18” 48 wheel this summer that I will go with. I will be using Van Steel offset trailing arms, narrowed spring, QA1 double adjustable and custom sway bar on the rear. Front is QA1 double adjustable semi coil over. Speed Direct alloy upper arms and Global West lowers.
Looks like the front caliper up grade with standard rears for starts.
my advice on springs is: If you know what you already have it is easy to know where you need to go next. I had front end dive with the VB&P 550# So I had to shim them up to keep my body off the tires. So I figured out that 650# would work with my very light front end. Well with time delays I settled on the 600#. Well i hit my nose down and broke the fiber glass so I bought the 700#
The springs are cheap and easy to change. So i might even try the 750 or 800#
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Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2010
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Track settings Willow Springs
Thanks for the advice. I have been following the posts by the active road race members for some months. Most of the decisions I have made have been based on lessons put forth by the members. I had a 2000 GTS viper that that was heavily modified prior to this car.
The 421 will be a hand full but I don’t see any point in building smaller.
The spring rates and sway bars will be a challenge from what I have read. I am going to resist flaring the car as I just can't see cutting up an original 71 LT1. I will post some pictures of the suspension install in the next few weeks.
Willow springs has embarrassed me before I will be carful on turn 9
The 421 will be a hand full but I don’t see any point in building smaller.
The spring rates and sway bars will be a challenge from what I have read. I am going to resist flaring the car as I just can't see cutting up an original 71 LT1. I will post some pictures of the suspension install in the next few weeks.
Willow springs has embarrassed me before I will be carful on turn 9
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I am putting togeather the engine now. Going with Dart SHP 421 strocker. 3.875 x 4.155. AFR 210s ordered and on the way. I have not settled on the roller cam yet.
Trans is T600 with worked over 3.55 thirdmember and 3.5" halfshafts. All new hubs and bearings.
I am in southern califronia so most track time will be at willow springs later this year.
Trans is T600 with worked over 3.55 thirdmember and 3.5" halfshafts. All new hubs and bearings.
I am in southern califronia so most track time will be at willow springs later this year.
Another thing is 210 heads are small I have 227 cc and I really looked into Brodix 272 cc 12 or 13 degee heads. You really need more than 310 CFM. Bigger flow requires less cam duration. More lift flows the bests for any given head. I went with some lobes from endurance racing SR profilewith 1.7 rockers for .685/.714 lift. I built my motor for rpm and rpm kills. I was doing 7500 rpm with my first 427 and broke the crank shaft. So I went with better crank and 434 and lowered it to 7000 rpm
I would really look at gearing The TKO600 with the .82 RR tranny and determine if you are going to have to use 4th gear or a 5th gear racing.
I have a carb done by a pro carb shop that does road racing and circle track.
custom hardend yokes and big outer spindles 1/2 inch studs.
Last edited by gkull; Mar 10, 2011 at 10:53 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I just did a Dart shp short block 3.875 stroker with big rod bolts and it was allot of block clearance grinding.
IMO blocks made for 4. 00 - 4.125 strokers to begin with are the only way to go.
On this forum "Blockman" sells good forged stroker rods and Dart blocks all set up with bigger lifter bores. PM him
IMO blocks made for 4. 00 - 4.125 strokers to begin with are the only way to go.
On this forum "Blockman" sells good forged stroker rods and Dart blocks all set up with bigger lifter bores. PM him
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Intermediate
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Block Prep
I am cheating a little on the engine build. CNC motorsports is doing the short block.
Callies, Compstar and Mahle for the rotator. Dart SHP block
CNC is doing all the prep work. I will double check everything and finish the rest of the build at home. I don’t have the tools to do all the detailed block work and it’s been a while since I did a small block Chevy.
So you think I need more head volume like a set of AFR 220cc competition package heads.
A friend at SMI Carburetors (Sean) will do the Carb. (Very good local shop in Huntington Beach)
I am a few weeks away from Cam selection but I am aiming for 550 or so HP and similar torque with peaks on the HP below 6500 rpm. Looking for a reasonably flat torque curve. Day to day you get California 91 octane gas here so 10.5 to 1 is where a plan on the compression. Flat pistons and 75 cc heads.
Callies, Compstar and Mahle for the rotator. Dart SHP block
CNC is doing all the prep work. I will double check everything and finish the rest of the build at home. I don’t have the tools to do all the detailed block work and it’s been a while since I did a small block Chevy.
So you think I need more head volume like a set of AFR 220cc competition package heads.
A friend at SMI Carburetors (Sean) will do the Carb. (Very good local shop in Huntington Beach)
I am a few weeks away from Cam selection but I am aiming for 550 or so HP and similar torque with peaks on the HP below 6500 rpm. Looking for a reasonably flat torque curve. Day to day you get California 91 octane gas here so 10.5 to 1 is where a plan on the compression. Flat pistons and 75 cc heads.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I have 227 cc darts on my 383 and it runs fine. The 220 or the 235cc would work fine. Offset shaft rockers are really the best way to go. I use offset lifters in my 434 to get better valve train geometry. It's just more work to set them up and shaft rockers are superior. I would aim a little higher than 550 hp. 11/1 compression is fine if you have 242 or higher intake duration. I use a custom from the lobe profile pages 248/250 and it runs fine on 91 fuel
It's not cheap to race a vette, that is why I only take my Vette to a few SCCA events per year. I restored a March 1972 F2 So my boss lets me drive it
It's not cheap to race a vette, that is why I only take my Vette to a few SCCA events per year. I restored a March 1972 F2 So my boss lets me drive it