xkeots

If my memory serves me well I have seen similar problems here. I just don't know how to navigate this site.
Let me tell me story, My 77 L-82 starter is about 2-3 inches off of my "Y" joint on my exhaust off the motor. It has to be giving off mucho heat. The other day I took it to the market and it was 98 degrees out and the starter must have cooked. I shut down and when I tried to start it, the motor cranked a few times and then in the middle of cranking it totally died, nothing, zip. It was like nothing was connected. I opened the hood and looked at the under hood light and I turned the key, the light didn't even dim so I know that nothing was wrong with the battery (I just put a brand new Delco battery in the car last month). The flat bed picked me up and took me home. About 5 hours later when it cooled outside and the car cooled it cranked and started.
I have seen solenoid heat blocks but what should I do here? Is it the starter or solenoid or both heating up. I even get this problem in the winter but the cold gets the car starting quicker. I want it out of my head that if I use the car it won't start.

Thanks
Jack
1977 L-82
1963 SW coupe

...Roger...

Sounds like from what you described its solenoid heat soak but you really should prove that the S terminal was getting power. Temporarily wire in a light bulb to the S term and the next time it happens watch the light,if it lights I would say it is solenoid heat soak. Buy a quality solenoid,put a metal shield on the exhaust pipe to deflect heat away from the starter.
Of course make sure all your grounds are good and all pos connections also.

Ironcross

I doubt that you starter is bad because it cranks but not when driven.....first off, everything gets hot under the hood, so if that was the case nothing would work....If your main ground under the car from the battery is corroded your engine will try to find a substitute which could be through a shift cable or brake lines....which is not strong enough to to start a engine......Another problem you may have is that the alternator is not charging correctly and you have been driving off battery less than 12 volts and after it sets will restart.... a good battery can have time to recover....The alternator can be tested without removal by full fielding it. But before you remove anything clean the grounds as Roger suggested.....could save some under-car time and work.

7T1vette

Bad ground connection or disintegrating power or ground wire inside some insulation. Old wires/connections go bad over time, and heat will make the connection even worse. If the starter works fine after it "cools down"...it's not the starter. A functional starter will start the same whether it's hot or cold. If it actually gets damaged from heat, it would never start properly again.

Vette5.5

Couple things. Is your car totally stock, or running a bigger cam with more initial timing dialed in. If so, you can usually punch the gas briefly to kinda flood out the carb for a second, and usually start. Been awhile, but used to be able to get the older conventional starters built up with welded rotor wire connections. Most are the smaller gear reduction units now, but surely you can still have your unit rebuilt, or at least fab up a heat shield for it.

76Vett

Had the same problem on my 76 just last week - I'd drive it, shut it off, tried to restart and nothing - just like the battery wasn't there. Waited 20 minutes and it would start just fine. Turned out to be a worn ground battery cable. Went to NAPA - they made one to fit for $19.00 and have not had a problem.

xkeots

All cables were wire brushed clean in May when I put a new solenoid in. I waited 30 minutes and still had nothing. It wouldn't start for hours. I thought that the starter/Solenoid were cooked. I jacked the car up to look and I forgot just how close the exhaust Y pipe is to the starter.
I am going to wrap the exhaust and try to find a starter shield, not just the solenoid.
I am sick of every time I drive the car, worrying if I will get stuck.
I put a new starter in last year and I replaced the solenoid again in May 2011. My connections are so clean that they looked polished and they are tight.

Jack

...Roger...

Are you certain you have power at the S term when this is happening ?

xkeots

Stock but the starter will not turn when @ 180. Cools down turns fine. I saw a C3 with a Ford solenoid mounted to wheel well. Guy said no problems but didn't know how it was done.

toobroketoretire

In the many years I have been working on these C3's I have never encountered a "hot starter" problem but rather many bad aluminum engine-to-frame ground cables that have gotten corrosion inside their eye terminals. An inexpensive 18" #2 copper ground cable fixes it.

REELAV8R

I had a similar problem with my 77. I replaced the solenoid and thought I had it until it did it again.

It acted just like a hot starter solenoid problem but turned out to be the neutral safety switch. Fixed that and I have not had it do it since.

Make sure your starter has the heat shield in place as well.

Blue73Shark

If you have them, make sure the correct wires are going to the R and S terminals on the solenoid. I had the same problem on my 73. I found out I had reversed the two wires when I had previously replaced the starter.
Problem solved.
Fran

drwet

Heat increases the resistance in all the wiring. That includes the power cable, ground cable, and the starter itself. All the suggestions about fixing bad connections and old cables have merit. In my opinion the best solution though, assuming you don't feel its important to maintain originality, is to install a modern gear reduction 'mini' starter. They are smaller and lighter, more efficient, and will start the car even when the battery is weak or the engine is hot, and even when the connections and cables are less than perfect. I had the hot no start problem when I first got my car about 20 years ago. Swapped in a GM factory gear reduction starter and haven't had a problem since.

Big2Bird

Not always. Many guys with BBC hot engines with headers encounter this. We showed you the service bulletin, yet you persist. GM knew it, and you just don't.

xkeots

I have to try. After all this time I am throwing up my hands. I am sick of sitting in parking lots waiting for solenoid to cool down so car will start. Someone said they will take my money? What about those who took my money for new starter/ solenoid, new battery, new cables, new heat shield, new heat wrap, rechecking and cleaning contacts and all wiring, all my time replacing and getting stuck. For the 20 something dollars I paid Summit Racing for the Ford style solenoid, I just have to try it. Car is stock, no headers.
No bubba here, just getting older since I first got this car and I am sick of having to be somewhere and ending up late because of this problem.
If the solenoid works, I am at a point where IDGAS if it's Mickey Mouse as long as it works.
will post with results when installed and tested.
Jax
1977 L-82

7T1vette

You still have the same problem after 5 years? The only possibilities for the cause of your problem could be checked in one day:

1. Bad battery to frame grounding wire;
2. Bad positive battery lead to starter solenoid;
3. Bad main engine ground wire from right A-frame member to right-side motor mount;
4. Bad solenoid.
5. Worn out starter.

You notice that the starter is the least likely item; and it's fault could be [indirectly] affected by heat. If the brushes are worn out in the starter, there is very poor contact made with the commutator. Adding heat could cause poorer starting performance. But, that's only if the starter brushes are shot. If they've never been replaced in 40 years, that's a possibility. If the starter is not the original unit, it's not likely brushes that are the problem.

Better start on this list soon. Retirement is just around the corner....

gungatim

if you read the bulletin from GM (I have posted it before), the problem is not the starter but in the solenoid. when it is hot, it takes more voltage to activate the hold windings. if there is any more than 2v drop, it will not have the power to activate the solenoid. the solenoid takes a minimum. of 7 volts to engage. voltage drop across all the switches and circuits normally allows around 8 volts for solenoid operation. this is directly from the document. (remember, the starter gets full power from the battery cable through the solenoid switch when engaged, the solenoid gets power from the purple wire S terminal which is fed through key switch, neutral safety, etc.)

if you do a voltage drop test when cold, then hot, you can see how much power is actually getting to the solenoid, and how much it is drawing when it is working. the document specifies max length of wire based on gage and type. when you replace a battery cable with wrong gage, or use CCA, and/or it is too long, it increases voltage drop.

the problem rarely manifests itself in a stock vehicle as designed from GM, but in custom vehicles (thus why the document is for motorhomes and such), or where people remove heat shields, add headers, add performance parts, etc. we see it a lot on here because these cars are old, the wiring is old, the switches and various connections are old. wire looks good but is corroded in the insulation. bubba hacks, etc.

the remote solenoid trick simply eliminates voltage drop and gives max power directly to the solenoid. it won't do any good if the battery, starter motor, ground wires, etc. are marginal to begin with...and before doing that, you should be using the proper solenoid/spring that is designed for high heat applications as listed in the document. many aftermarket solenoids are pure junk and only add to the problem.

and as stated by the late TBTR (who I rarely agreed with), I have never seen this manifest itself in a stock vehicle in properly maintained condition in my 30+ years of wrenching...it is not a defect in GM's design, but a symptom of poor maintenance or changes to the original design.

Kid Vette

Go to a PMGR starter. They are lighter and smaller and solve the hot start issue. Unless you are the NCRS type there is no reason not to.

When you go to 18 to 20 degrees initial timing advance as recommended for maximum performance, the stock starter can't keep up. I'm speaking from experience. I would go with a Powermaster starter; they rate theirs by torque which is what you need to know - not compression, amps, Kw, etc.

cardo0

I would never recommend a starter wrap. And a remote solenoid on the batt cable only adds and additional set of contacts while still the leaving the solenoid mounted on the starter to throw out the bendix gear and energize the starter motor.

The best cure is a functional heat shield. One that provides an air gap between starter/solenoid and the shield. Not one the contacts the starter/solenoid anywhere other than where it mounts.

Improper solenoid spring, loose or corroded contacts from ign switch and batt cable included, poor starter grounding, corroded starter motor bushings, corroded starter motor commutator will all work against engaging the bendix gear and turning the engine over.

Let us know what works for you.

Buccaneer

If everything is in good condition and you don't want to install Ford parts in your GM vette... Go with PowerMaster Mini High Torque starter. You will not have cooked solenoid issues anymore. However, that type of starter does require 12+ volts at all times to spin the starter hot or cold. So, if your battery not up to snuff and is low, it will not turn over the motor.

I trashed two brand new starters many many years ago and switched to a mini high torque and never have had an issue with the starter not working again. My headers are right next to the starter on my 383 and does not have a heat shield or wrapped.