Heard a ticking noise on way to a cruise-in and by the time I got home had bad miss in completely rebuilt motor with 491 miles on it. Turned out to be roller rocker end of push rods were really chewed up. I suspect problem is CHEAP ROLLER ROCKERS and stock push rods along with aggressive cam profile and non stock valve springs. Push rod even beat up the snap ring on one lifter with part of it getting past the screen and into the oil pump. Needless to say I have the motor all apart again and am taking no chances of further damage from the pieces of the push rod that got into the motor. New oil pump, new main and rod bearings, new lifter, new Comp Cams Roller Rockers and hardened push rods. Not exactly your silly little half hour job!

As someone recently told me "only rich guys buy cheap parts because they buy a lot of them!" I did some searching since and I don't think I am the only one who has had the problem. Hope you can learn from my mistake!!

Unk

 

Were the rockers hurt, or just the pushrods?

I had this happen but only the pushrods were chewed up. The rockers were still fine.

 

do you have self-guided (aka rail) roller rockers? ... OR ... do you have guide plates installed under studs of conventional roller rockers? ... one OR the other?

rail or guide plates required for roller rockers.

if you have guide plates intalled, ensure they're adjusted so rocker's roller tip is properly aligned w/ valve tip.

ALSO

ensure there is sufficient clearance in valve train to prevent BOTH coil bind and retainer-to-valve seal/guide contact

ALSO

if you find rod/main bearing scoring ... better check cam bearings-journals too.

 

Rockers look like the tips of the rods cold welded themselves to the push rod. The ball socket for the push rod was picked up and looks like some push rod material cold welded to them. The majority of the rockers were also blue around the rocker fulcrum ball. The rocker ball has the lube groves in them.

When I showed them to Comp Cams guys (who did not make the failed set of roller rockers) their first questions concerned lubrication. It is a Melling HV pump and I am running standard L-82 valve covers with drippers. I have had good oil pressure 30+ at idle and 60 + when driving around. For Oil I have been running Shell Rotella T for the extra ZDDP.

Cam lobes look great and show hardly any wear. Lifters all look good except the one that the push rod beat the snap ring out of. I found all the pieces.

I checked an have the plug in the oil passage where it is supposed to be and have run fresh oil through it using a homemade tool that allows me to turn the oil pump with a drill and also get oil to both galleries. I mad an aluminum plug that is grooved allow the oil to pass from the rear of the distributor bore to the front of it to the passenger side lifter gallery.

This one sure has me concerned and I am double checking all possible leads as to cause so any suggestions are welcomed. From what I found reading other site posts, the roller rockers I had originally used may have some issues.

Thanks for the reply,
Unk

 

I have 882 heads with the screw in rocker studs and the factory guide plates. I took care to adjust them to make certain they were lined up with the top of the valve stem. They have clearance to full stroke without hitting the bottom of the push rod guides. Valves were set to Comp Cams specs for cam and springs which came from them. Comp Cams WAS NOT the source for the Roller Rockers.

I will check again to see if there is any sign of coil bind as that sure would put a large load on the pushrod. I replaced the springs when I ported the heads and had the local machine shop do a 3 angle valve job. They had the cam card to use to set up the springs per Comp Cams recommendations. They have done several sets of heads for me over the years and I have not had any quality issues with them in the past.

Only the rear mains were lightly scratched and the rods showed some signs that some of the fines had gotten into them. So I am replacing them all. I loosed up all the bearing caps and then after cleaning out the motor top and bottom, I pumped fresh oil through it all including a new filter for about 20 minutes and then pulled the bearing caps off. I didn't find any new particles in the oil pan when I pulled it down again. I then used spray brake/parts cleaner to flush out bearing area before installing the new bearings. Checking clearances on all bearings as they are installed. From looking at cam lobe surfaces and the majority of the bearings pulled, I decided the cam bearings were probably not seriously damaged. A lot of the rod bearings were just very lightly scratched if all all.

I appreciate the suggestion and if cam had shown any wear I would have pulled it including the bearings.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,
Unk

 

I would guess that something has plugged or restricted the pushrod oiling hole. What were you using to hold your screens in place? Secondly was the aluminum plug made just for the priming of the motor? Usually the damage that was described is due to lack of oil. Some people restrict oil flow with roller rockers because they dont require as much but if its done and any debris gets in there the oil flow can be cut off at that point or restricted enough to starve rockers.

 

I had that happen with mine, and figured it was due to high spring pressure (mine's 350 lbs open) and cheap rockers/pushrods.

I was on a budget then and used Comp rollertip rockers and the standard junk pushrods. I later went with thick wall hardened pushrods and full roller rockers and haven't had that problem since.
Before:


After:

 

Many thanks for the comments. Aluminum plug was made just for priming and flushing using a drill motor to run the oil pump. I at least know now that oil is coming out of the lifters and into the push rods. Push rods are clear. Should have it back together tomorrow and will run without valve covers to check for oil flow.

In discussions with Comp Cams, the first question was about oil pump. I am running Melling HV pump. Second question was about valve covers. They said that tall valve covers without drippers along with high volume pump may overshoot the oil out of the pushrod/rocker. I am running stock L-82 covers with drippers.

Thanks again, sure hope I don't have to go through this again!
Unk

 

Wow I thought my engine looked trashed with just one lifter apart! Glad you were able to get it all resolved, gives me some confidence that this time it will all work.

Thanks again,
Unk

 

Also check your pushrods on a flat surface like sheet of glass. Roll pushrods individualy and check that they roll smoothly. If they wobble then they are bending under pressure which can contribute to this situation.

 

Obviously, check valve springs and make sure they are not binding. I'm not sure of the placement, but you may want to make sure that the cam bearings were installed correctly. I seem to remember that one may be different, but don't quote me. Make certain you're getting good oiling to/through the pushrods.

 

+1 I see a couple of problems here, all trending towards lack of checking at assembly. Clearly a lubrication issue...but I'd also suspect there are some valvetrain clearance issues as well.

You don't want an HV oil pump if your bearing clearances are on-spec.

 

Would appreciate understanding problems with high volume pump and standard bearing clearances?
Thanks,
Unk

 

Briefly, HV pumps came out of two situations. One, as a means to restore reasonable oil pressure to engines with wide bearing clearances due to wear. Two, racing teams experimented with wider-than-typical clearances as a means to achieve more flow and so lower oil temps. The thinking was also that a thicker oil layer would be more "flexible" and provide better protection. Didn't work, and racing teams went back to standard clearances pretty quickly...but HV pumps became the "next great thing" so everyone wanted them.

Using an HV pump with standard bearing clearances does no harm to the engine - but the pump can only push so much oil through those clearances - so the pump ends up taking more force to run and can suck 10+ HP on a GEN I SBC...while placing greater load on the distributor, etc. Someone will also mention that HV pumps can suck an oil pan dry...but I've never seen it happen as the pump goes into bypass fairly quickly due to high oil pressure.

Generally the only pump you want for a GEN I build making less than about 1.4 HP/CID are one of the Melling Select Performance standard volume pumps. There are always exceptions, but if you're not doing anything way out there, this is the right route to go.

http://www.mellingselectperformance.com/

There's always a lot of heated discussion about this, so this will be my "one pass, haul ***"

 

This is a moron talking ! Before you talk to any "tech" ask him what car he drives. Most people working for $12 bucks an hour is a junky rice car and have never even seen a gen 1 small block or finished high school. You must have a very low lift cam if your l-82 covers drippers are not getting beat up. Many years ago I had to snap them off for RR clearance before going to the tallest dart valve covers

your 30 idle and 60 running is fine. You adjust the oil pressure with oil weight and engine temp. I run more like 40 - 80 in a non bypass with 10W-30 Valvoline R1 To get my pressure down it needs 5W-30, but R1 is high zinc

HV pumps get a bad rap...... With a bypass system any excess pressure is bled off so it is a waste of HP.


My bet is you need good 80 wall chromemoly pushrods of the correct length and good lash settings.

 

+1 *chuckle* - I had missed that post - but "overshooting" the oil? Too funny!

+1 Yeah, I wondered about the drippers myself - although I'd expect inspection would show if there was an issue there very quickly.

Isn't being a waste of HP a reasonable "bad rap"?

 

You can use a smaller flat screw driver to turn a Phillip head screw. Is it the right tool? NO! Your high volume pump is the wrong tool unless you are running a non-bypass oil sytem and lighter weight oils to keep your oil pressure within reason. A new tight clearance motor will have high oil pressure, but as the years go by the oil pressure decreases.

I also have an 8 quart system. A person using a HV oil pump in a stock 5 qt with a bypass is kind of like the guy with a small flat screw driver and the job of removing 100 phillips heads screws

 

I think you missed my point...which was HV pumps have a bad rap for a good reason

 

Yea HV pumps can help to increase oil pressures, in a loose engine. But the main reason for them is in the use of external oil filters and oil coolers no need for them if you don't have these!.
I would check and be sure someone did not install oil restrictors in the block, many believe they are needed when roller rockers are used. Also that the rear cam bearing is installed properly, the newer style bearings are narrower that the block journal and some are not installed all the way in and miss part of the oil groove which creates an internal oil leak. It also is where the oil transfers to the lifters. You also could have incomparable metals creating a problem too. Haven't seen that one much but it does happen.