LSx vs. Carb Engines
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Blacksburg Virginia
LSx vs. Carb Engines
Hey Guys-
I've finally broken down and decided to tackle the engine in my car. I've decided to go with a crate as I don't have the tools or know-how to rebuild my own engine.
The goal for my car is to have a nice driver that my wife and I can maybe take some longer trips away from home in, and a driver around town on nice days.
I'm not looking to make enormous power, maybe something in the 350 horse range to make it fun to drive.
I've been debating an LS1 vs a well tuned crate like a ZZ4. Which would you guys choose and why, I've done tons of reading hear and elsewhere but could find anything directly like this question. Hopefully I wont start a huge EFI vs. Carb debate as that isnt the intent.
Thanks in advance.
I've finally broken down and decided to tackle the engine in my car. I've decided to go with a crate as I don't have the tools or know-how to rebuild my own engine.
The goal for my car is to have a nice driver that my wife and I can maybe take some longer trips away from home in, and a driver around town on nice days.
I'm not looking to make enormous power, maybe something in the 350 horse range to make it fun to drive.
I've been debating an LS1 vs a well tuned crate like a ZZ4. Which would you guys choose and why, I've done tons of reading hear and elsewhere but could find anything directly like this question. Hopefully I wont start a huge EFI vs. Carb debate as that isnt the intent.
Thanks in advance.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 293
Likes: 1
From: Eaton Ohio
Honestly If you do not have the tools to or know how I'd just go with the ZZ4 it is a solid crate motor had by many here. The FI of the LS would be nice, but the issues of fabing up the fuel pump motor mounts, etc... you would probably be better off with the turn key zz4... plug and play... an engine rebuild isn't really that complicated... the Haynes repair manual will even walk you through it... pick one up if you don't already have it and read through the engine overhaul section... then make up your mind
Pro
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 587
Likes: 0
From: Overland Park Kansas
The LS1 would be the better engine. FI is always more friendly than a carb, no matter how well setup, for a lot wider set of driving conditions. No "warmup", better fuel economy, etc etc etc.
As bryan said though, a LS1 swap is going to be way more complicated than a ZZ4 drop in.
As bryan said though, a LS1 swap is going to be way more complicated than a ZZ4 drop in.
Last edited by neuroclast; Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM.
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 4
From: Somers CT
The ZZ4 would be the easiest way to refresh your car in my opinion, it's virtually a drop in replacement and would seem to fit the bill for your driving goals as you describe them. I had one and found it to be a very smooth running reliable motor. It's still a carburated motor though with the typical carb issues they sometimes have but all in all not a big deal once you get them set up OK. I have a Q jet on mine and it works perfectly.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 11,520
Likes: 13
From: CORVETTE 77 385 C.I. TEXAS
Design goals:
Easily done w/ stock engine or similar.
"I've decided to go with a crate as I don't have the tools or know-how to rebuild my own engine."
Having a completely different engine put in assuming you find someone to do it is not the hot ticket for those who don't work on it themselves. Some who buy cars like that cannot find a shop to work on them. Of course that probably depends on what needs to be done.
Another popular FI option is the TPI on original type engine.
The issue is what's best for you- it doesn't matter what some of us who do our own would do.
...
The goal for my car is to have a nice driver that my wife and I can maybe take some longer trips away from home in, and a driver around town on nice days.
I'm not looking to make enormous power, maybe something in the 350 horse range to make it fun to drive.
...Thanks in advance.
The goal for my car is to have a nice driver that my wife and I can maybe take some longer trips away from home in, and a driver around town on nice days.
I'm not looking to make enormous power, maybe something in the 350 horse range to make it fun to drive.
...Thanks in advance.
"I've decided to go with a crate as I don't have the tools or know-how to rebuild my own engine."
Having a completely different engine put in assuming you find someone to do it is not the hot ticket for those who don't work on it themselves. Some who buy cars like that cannot find a shop to work on them. Of course that probably depends on what needs to be done.
Another popular FI option is the TPI on original type engine.
The issue is what's best for you- it doesn't matter what some of us who do our own would do.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Blacksburg Virginia
I suppose I misled in the original post. I'm pretty mechanically experienced, I've done engine/transmission/axle swaps and other major projects on cars before. I've done most of the rebuild of my Vette myself. I have plenty of tools and a garage to do it in.
I personally do not feel comfortable with the internals of an engine though, I would never jump into a full rebuild that I hope to be 150k mile reliable for my first rebuild. That's more what I meant by know-how.
I have no doubts I could swap either engine in on my own and make it run. I was looking for a comparison of an LS1 vs. a ZZ4 or similar crate engine for my driving expectations and needs, also cost, ease of install and other advice you guys might be able to offer.
Sorry If I wasn't clear on my abilities. Thanks for all the advice so far, keep it coming.
I personally do not feel comfortable with the internals of an engine though, I would never jump into a full rebuild that I hope to be 150k mile reliable for my first rebuild. That's more what I meant by know-how.
I have no doubts I could swap either engine in on my own and make it run. I was looking for a comparison of an LS1 vs. a ZZ4 or similar crate engine for my driving expectations and needs, also cost, ease of install and other advice you guys might be able to offer.
Sorry If I wasn't clear on my abilities. Thanks for all the advice so far, keep it coming.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
I suppose I misled in the original post. I'm pretty mechanically experienced, I've done engine/transmission/axle swaps and other major projects on cars before. I've done most of the rebuild of my Vette myself. I have plenty of tools and a garage to do it in.
I personally do not feel comfortable with the internals of an engine though, I would never jump into a full rebuild that I hope to be 150k mile reliable for my first rebuild. That's more what I meant by know-how.
I have no doubts I could swap either engine in on my own and make it run. I was looking for a comparison of an LS1 vs. a ZZ4 or similar crate engine for my driving expectations and needs, also cost, ease of install and other advice you guys might be able to offer.
Sorry If I wasn't clear on my abilities. Thanks for all the advice so far, keep it coming.
I personally do not feel comfortable with the internals of an engine though, I would never jump into a full rebuild that I hope to be 150k mile reliable for my first rebuild. That's more what I meant by know-how.
I have no doubts I could swap either engine in on my own and make it run. I was looking for a comparison of an LS1 vs. a ZZ4 or similar crate engine for my driving expectations and needs, also cost, ease of install and other advice you guys might be able to offer.
Sorry If I wasn't clear on my abilities. Thanks for all the advice so far, keep it coming.
Dis-assembling and re-assembling a small block chevy is not that hard, don't be scared. Precision measuring tools, a torque wrench, a spring compressor, a piston ring compressor, and and a damper puller are really the only special tools that you need. The measuring tools and the torque wrench will cost some scratch, but the rest are pretty cheap.
Scott
Scott
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Drifting
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 50
From: Prosper TX
I've installed a FI engine in a '66 Mustang. It wasn't hard, just more involved. You do need to run an inline fuel filter and fuel pump near the tank, or mod the tank to have a submerged fuel pump with baffles. Without doing this, you could starve the engine when low on fumes and the fuel is sloshing around. Then you need to run new fuel lines, install the wiring harness and the varying sensors, relays and bungs.
Once you go through the 'checklist', it's like driving a modern car. You put the key in and it starts, doesn't hesitate and doesn't need frequent attention/tune.
No doubt the ZZ4 would indeed be easier, but if you want easy, no fuss driving and don't want to work on cars and want good mileage, then I'd go the FI route. Pick your poison! Personally, if I didn't have my carb to tinker with I'd have too much time on my hands.
Once you go through the 'checklist', it's like driving a modern car. You put the key in and it starts, doesn't hesitate and doesn't need frequent attention/tune.
No doubt the ZZ4 would indeed be easier, but if you want easy, no fuss driving and don't want to work on cars and want good mileage, then I'd go the FI route. Pick your poison! Personally, if I didn't have my carb to tinker with I'd have too much time on my hands.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,116
Likes: 5
From: Livonia MI
LS vs carburated really isn't the question. A nice small bock with a well set up Q-Jet is nothing short of awesome on the street. An LS3 with L92 heads is just so far beyond it though, it's hard to imagine. Things basically a race motor on the street. The L92's heads flow incredibly, and bolt all the way down to the bottom end. My current cars a C6 LS7, and some guys are running high 10's totally stock on drag rubber in these. 25 mpg highway too. Just throwing a little info out there.
Racer
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
From: LaSalle ON
My friend is running a ZZ4 with Dart Conquest heads, the GM Performance 'Hot' cam and a FAST throttle body FI system. He has a 12 sec. car with all the positive features of an FI system that didn't require any major fabrication to install. If you go ZZ4, you can always add the FI later on if you aren't happy with the driveability of a carb. The TBI systems are cool because unless you look closely (or drive it), you can't tell that it doesn't have a carb.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,941
Likes: 281
From: Was New Orleans but swam to Baton Rouge LA
Cruise-In IX Veteran
I helped a friend with the LS swap in a 67 Camaro. All I can say is the swap cost more money and time than keeping the sbc engine that was in the car. My friend spent about 10 grand doing is swap with the different headers, cross members, motor mounts, etc that are required for the LS swap. Now the swap and FI is nice on any car and if you do it right you will not be disappoint. Now if you wanted you could even carb the LS engine as they make a manifold for that. The choice is yours, but staying with a stock 350 or zz4 will be the cheaper and easier route with decent power.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
Likes: 1
From: Winston-Salem NC
My friend is running a ZZ4 with Dart Conquest heads, the GM Performance 'Hot' cam and a FAST throttle body FI system. He has a 12 sec. car with all the positive features of an FI system that didn't require any major fabrication to install. If you go ZZ4, you can always add the FI later on if you aren't happy with the driveability of a carb. The TBI systems are cool because unless you look closely (or drive it), you can't tell that it doesn't have a carb.
Cool! How much HP & TQ (approx)?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,116
Likes: 5
From: Livonia MI
All kinds of strange stuff going on out there. Recently saw a guy running a 71' Camaro with a Chrysler 360 low degree wedge heads on the track, and was kicking everyones butt in the class. Can't imagine what kind of conversion that was, but shows anything can be done.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,655
Likes: 19
I've done a couple LS swaps, including a 6.0 in my 68 vett.
I think the other consideration you're missing is time. You could swap in the ZZ4 in about a weekend. Plan on a month or more for the LS.
But it is great having that fuel injected motor with plenty of torque and getting 26mpg.
I think the other consideration you're missing is time. You could swap in the ZZ4 in about a weekend. Plan on a month or more for the LS.
But it is great having that fuel injected motor with plenty of torque and getting 26mpg.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Blacksburg Virginia
Wow guys-
Tons of great info here. I appreciate all of it. I'm still digesting it and doing some more research. I will let you all know what I decide. I really believe that an LS1 would be the ultimate in driveability. I'm a little worried by some of the price figures people are tossing around I figured I could get a low mileage used engine and swap it in for around $5-6K. Looks like I could easily get into a new ZZ4 for that.
Thanks again guys.
Tons of great info here. I appreciate all of it. I'm still digesting it and doing some more research. I will let you all know what I decide. I really believe that an LS1 would be the ultimate in driveability. I'm a little worried by some of the price figures people are tossing around I figured I could get a low mileage used engine and swap it in for around $5-6K. Looks like I could easily get into a new ZZ4 for that.
Thanks again guys.
Racer
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
From: LaSalle ON
The engine builder figured around 400 hp & 400 ft/lbs of torque at the crank. Just a guess as the engine & car haven't been on a dyno. It sounds about right. He was just a tenth than my car was with a 430hp 383, and our cars are pretty similar from a weight & launch traction perspective.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,116
Likes: 5
From: Livonia MI
A little more input. I had a mid 90's LT1 Camaro, then went to a C5 Vette LS1. The LT1 had more low end torque, but the LS1 pulled stronger up high. If I was going through the trouble of an LS conversion, would go more cubes than LS1. World Products makes a crossbreed block that drops right in. Standard small block on the bottom, and all LS on top. Maybe something to look into.