Richmond 5 speed
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Southern NH
Richmond 5 speed
My plans for my '81 are to install 3.54 rear gears and convert my auto to manual with a TKO600. However, the more I research I do, it seems that the Richmond 5 speed with the '81's stock 2.87 maybe be a better more economical choice.
Has anyone converted an auto to a Richmond 5 speed? Does the shifter line up in the stock location?
Has anyone converted an auto to a Richmond 5 speed? Does the shifter line up in the stock location?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
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The Richmond 5 speed with 1:1 5th is around $2600 (trans + shifter).
The Richmond 6 speed with 0.76:1 6th is $3000 (shifter included).
I installed the 6 speed and am very happy with it. It's a direct swap, the only additional things needed are a TH400 output yoke and a 67 hurst shifter handle (if you want it to look like the 4 speed inside the car). Shifter is in stock location. You can reuse the clutch, bell housing, driveshaft, etc. The crossmember will need minor mods, but with your removable one, that should be easy.
The Richmond 6 speed with 0.76:1 6th is $3000 (shifter included).
I installed the 6 speed and am very happy with it. It's a direct swap, the only additional things needed are a TH400 output yoke and a 67 hurst shifter handle (if you want it to look like the 4 speed inside the car). Shifter is in stock location. You can reuse the clutch, bell housing, driveshaft, etc. The crossmember will need minor mods, but with your removable one, that should be easy.
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From: coffee
Looking in to the same swap myself and have come to much the same conclusion. With the super tall rear gear that is otherwise not needing to be replaced, getting the low first and close ratio five speed would be a lot of fun.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
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Instructions from richmonds site.
http://www.richmondgear.com/0002pdfs...SIONMANUAL.pdf
You can shorten the "tongue" trans mount that's bolted to the crossmember.
http://www.richmondgear.com/0002pdfs...SIONMANUAL.pdf
You can shorten the "tongue" trans mount that's bolted to the crossmember.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Livonia MI
Think the easiest way would be a Keisler 5 speed TKO kit, with 3.27 1st .70 od 5th, leaving the 2.87 axle alone for now, as will probably work out fine. The mentioned 6 speed Tremec T-56, with 3.70 axle would probably be better, but lots more work/expense.
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In answer to part of your question, I have had DNE then Richmond 5 speeds (the 4+1, they called it with the 3.27:1 1st gear and 1:1 top gear for over 30 years.
The stock 2.87 rear you have is fine, forget the 3.5 rear, unless you are running real tall tires.
The 2.87 with Richmond would be about the same as 4.35:1 rear with a close ratio Muncie.
I do not like the long shifting times of the Richmond, it takes forever to shift gears due to the heavy rotating mass.
I would estimate in a 1/4 mile race, you will lose a full second vs a Muncie with good shifter over three shifts based on my memories of how fast an M21 could be shifted. That is an estimation, not something set in stone, maybe it is half a second, but it is certainly slower.
But, you can get around town like you have 4:56 gears,a nd still only tach say 2800 RPM at 75 MPH.
Doug
The stock 2.87 rear you have is fine, forget the 3.5 rear, unless you are running real tall tires.
The 2.87 with Richmond would be about the same as 4.35:1 rear with a close ratio Muncie.
I do not like the long shifting times of the Richmond, it takes forever to shift gears due to the heavy rotating mass.
I would estimate in a 1/4 mile race, you will lose a full second vs a Muncie with good shifter over three shifts based on my memories of how fast an M21 could be shifted. That is an estimation, not something set in stone, maybe it is half a second, but it is certainly slower.
But, you can get around town like you have 4:56 gears,a nd still only tach say 2800 RPM at 75 MPH.
Doug
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Southern NH
Wow, do they really shift that bad? That's kind of a let down to hear that. It's the only non positive thing I've read so far. I'm not going to be drag racing but I want to enjoy driving the car.
6 speed transmissions are not going to be an option. Price is one reason and I have the T56 with a 3.73 rear in my daily driver CTS-V, and I feel a 5 speed overdrive would have been fine in that car.
6 speed transmissions are not going to be an option. Price is one reason and I have the T56 with a 3.73 rear in my daily driver CTS-V, and I feel a 5 speed overdrive would have been fine in that car.
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They don't shift bad, but you can't bang shift gears. I wouldn't try speed shifting, keeping your foot on the throttle during the shift, at all.
They were developed as road race transmissions, not for 1/4 mile dragsters.
I had an M21 with a short throw Mr Gasket shifter, 30 some years ago,and it was somewhat slower than an auto trans on shifting, but not much. No matter how much muscle you put on a Richmond, it won't shift that fast.
All that internal mass, makes the synchros work harder and longer to get the internals up to speed and into the next gear
Doug
They were developed as road race transmissions, not for 1/4 mile dragsters.
I had an M21 with a short throw Mr Gasket shifter, 30 some years ago,and it was somewhat slower than an auto trans on shifting, but not much. No matter how much muscle you put on a Richmond, it won't shift that fast.
All that internal mass, makes the synchros work harder and longer to get the internals up to speed and into the next gear
Doug
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From: coffee
I have read that a Long brand shifter feels a bit better than the Hurst, but it isn't cheap, and Doug's point about the internals is probably something that you can not "tune" out.
If I took my car to the strip regularly, I'd put a shift kit in a TH350 and call it a day. Quick shifts are fun, but they are not why I prefer a manual.
All that said, the Keisler RS400 has an even deeper first than the Richmond 5 speed, but with a .64 overdrive that would have a 2.87 rear car at less than 1500 RPM @ 65 vs 2300 RPM for a 1:1 top gear.
If I took my car to the strip regularly, I'd put a shift kit in a TH350 and call it a day. Quick shifts are fun, but they are not why I prefer a manual.
All that said, the Keisler RS400 has an even deeper first than the Richmond 5 speed, but with a .64 overdrive that would have a 2.87 rear car at less than 1500 RPM @ 65 vs 2300 RPM for a 1:1 top gear.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Southern NH
Well I pulled the trigger and bought a Richmond kit off of a member here. It comes with the Long shifter, driveshaft and tranny mount bracket, so I won't have to worry about those things. I already have a bell housing and pedal assembly. I think I'm going to be around $1500 less with this setup then If I bought an auto to manual TKO kit, and I won't have to touch my rear end. so figure another $1000 savings there.
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Race Director
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From: coffee
EDIT: Just looked it up - they were sold to Midwest Truck and Auto Parts Inc. in December - LINK
Last edited by nate99; Feb 9, 2012 at 10:45 AM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Southern NH
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,943
Likes: 61
From: Southern NH
Besides, who to say these 3rd party companies that Keisler is buying parts from to build their RS transmissions aren't going to go under at some point in the future? The RS600 transmission is already scrapped and being replaced because the supplier couldn't keep up with the demand, and people were ordering those up like crazy. At least there's over 30 years worth or Richmond 5 speeds out there to get replacement parts from.
Race Director
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Besides, who to say these 3rd party companies that Keisler is buying parts from to build their RS transmissions aren't going to go under at some point in the future? The RS600 transmission is already scrapped and being replaced because the supplier couldn't keep up with the demand, and people were ordering those up like crazy. At least there's over 30 years worth or Richmond 5 speeds out there to get replacement parts from.
Plus the Richmond uses off the shelf bearings,and I believe the synchro rings are the same as T10 synchros.
Contrast that to the ZF gearbox used in the Ferrari 308 series, a new synchro ring will set you back about $500.
Doug