Rerouting a C4 serpentine conversion on a ‘69
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 575
Likes: 3
From: Tampa / Ft. Myers FL
Rerouting a C4 serpentine conversion on a ‘69
I have a serpentine from an ’89 donor and will be running it without air conditioning (for now) so I’m looking at rerouting the belt. Below are diagrams of the current and proposed routing. I have the reverse rotation pump now so if I go with the 2nd routing I’ll need to get a standard rotation pump and fab up a bracket for the new location of the tensioner. The body is off so I have lots of room to experiment.
Please give it a look and let me know if you see any potential problems or have any other ideas.
Thanks
Please give it a look and let me know if you see any potential problems or have any other ideas.
Thanks
Pro
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 577
Likes: 6
According to your diagram you'll also have to fabricate a smooth pulley for your power steering pump since it's going to get the smooth side of the belt instead of the ribbed side. If you run the smooth side over a grooved pulley you'll experience faster wear. That brings up another issue. You're already dealing with a minimum of belt contact on each pulley and going with a smooth belt side on a smooth pull with such a lack of contact might result in a lot of slippage. That could cause problems with your power steering and will certainly generate a lot of noise, heat, and additional belt wear.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 9,272
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http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...r+conditioning
here you go.
and another
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...tensioner.html
here you go.
and another
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...tensioner.html
Last edited by oldalaskaman; May 10, 2012 at 08:49 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
According to your diagram you'll also have to fabricate a smooth pulley for your power steering pump since it's going to get the smooth side of the belt instead of the ribbed side. If you run the smooth side over a grooved pulley you'll experience faster wear. That brings up another issue. You're already dealing with a minimum of belt contact on each pulley and going with a smooth belt side on a smooth pull with such a lack of contact might result in a lot of slippage. That could cause problems with your power steering and will certainly generate a lot of noise, heat, and additional belt wear.
I have the same serp setup on my '80, from an '87 'vette, and I'm thinking about getting rid of the air conditioning, too. I think the cheapest and easiest way out is an A/C delete pulley:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...parttype,10329
Good luck with however you choose to go,
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: DFW TX
Cruise-In VII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '07
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Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,831
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From: Springfield MO
St. Jude Donor '07
Does that C4 setup actually fit? It looks like the alternator would run into the upper control arm mount. I know the low-profile setup used on the Camaro/Firebird and a number of sedans fits, I have one in my car. It leaves everything in the original positions as the C3.
Pro
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 577
Likes: 6
That's how it came from the factory on the C4s. If you look carefully at the diagrams, the top one is the factory set-up, and the power steering pump is the same on both diagrams. Don't ask me why, it just is. Sorry to "call you out" like that, dude, I'm not trying to be a jerk, or a know-it-all, or anything.
That isn't "calling me out" at all so don't feel bad. I just didn't know that the C4 serpentine system used a smooth power steering pulley. I'm rather amazed that GM would do that. I would think it would slip and squeal badly.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,831
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From: Springfield MO
St. Jude Donor '07
Grooved pulleys run on the grooved side of the belt. Smooth pulleys run on the smooth side. Tension and the rubber compound of the belt keeps it all from slipping. P/S runs on the "back" of the belt.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 65,492
Likes: 230
From: Orange Park Florida
TPI C4 belt drives are a bolt on in any C3 accessory delete pulleys are another story, I know the air pump delete is easy....a/c delete I know nothing about....
there are no control arm problems...plenty of clearance.....
there are no control arm problems...plenty of clearance.....
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,831
Likes: 10
From: Springfield MO
St. Jude Donor '07
A/C delete is easy, just get on eBay and buy one of the proper delete pulleys. It has a bracket that bolts into the frame in place of the compressor. I have one on the F-body/sedan serpentine system in my 77 for now.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,445
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From: Athens GA
St. Jude Donor '12-'13, '15- '16-'17-'18-'19, '21
Not to hijack a thread
What are the advantages of using a serpentine system over the old multi belt system?
If you lose the one belt you are out of action.
I am still acquiring parts for my project so now would be a good time for me to switch over.
Thanks for any input.
And thanks to all that posted pics and links.
Bman
If you lose the one belt you are out of action.
I am still acquiring parts for my project so now would be a good time for me to switch over.
Thanks for any input.
And thanks to all that posted pics and links.
Bman
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
What are the advantages of using a serpentine system over the old multi belt system?
If you lose the one belt you are out of action.
I am still acquiring parts for my project so now would be a good time for me to switch over.
Thanks for any input.
And thanks to all that posted pics and links.
Bman
If you lose the one belt you are out of action.
I am still acquiring parts for my project so now would be a good time for me to switch over.
Thanks for any input.
And thanks to all that posted pics and links.
Bman
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...e/viewall.html
Pay particular attention to the second paragraph.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,445
Likes: 353
From: Athens GA
St. Jude Donor '12-'13, '15- '16-'17-'18-'19, '21
It's true, there is a single point of failure for a serp belt setup, but the serp belt is much, much more reliable than an older style belt. If you don't run a tensioner, you lose some of this reliability, tho.
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...e/viewall.html
Pay particular attention to the second paragraph.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...e/viewall.html
Pay particular attention to the second paragraph.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Bman (Dennis)
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 575
Likes: 3
From: Tampa / Ft. Myers FL
The original factory setup (in the first picture) all fits with no issues; I test fitted it all prior to powdercoating the brackets. All the rest of the A/C inside the body is removed (for now) so I’m trying to delete pulleys and reduce belt flapping distance between pulleys.
If I go with the A/C delete pulley I’ll also need a smog pump delete pulley and bracket; this is because the angle of the belt coming off the alternator will hit the power steering pump pulley on the way to the water pump pulley.
The only issues I see are:
Changing to a standard rotation water pump and the smooth water pump pulley riding on the ribbed side of the belt in the second picture (my drawing) all the other pulleys are riding on the correct side of the belt
Fabbing of the tensioner pulley bracket in the only place I can see it fitting (also in the second drawing.)
I won’t be back to the car until Tue or Wed I’ll take some pictures and post what I think it will look like.
Thanks oldalaskaman, looks like 98Red’s post #6 (less the tensioner pulley) is exactly what I’m thinking of.
Thanks to everyone for the comments and the links so far; keep them coming.
If I go with the A/C delete pulley I’ll also need a smog pump delete pulley and bracket; this is because the angle of the belt coming off the alternator will hit the power steering pump pulley on the way to the water pump pulley.
The only issues I see are:
Changing to a standard rotation water pump and the smooth water pump pulley riding on the ribbed side of the belt in the second picture (my drawing) all the other pulleys are riding on the correct side of the belt
Fabbing of the tensioner pulley bracket in the only place I can see it fitting (also in the second drawing.)
I won’t be back to the car until Tue or Wed I’ll take some pictures and post what I think it will look like.
Thanks oldalaskaman, looks like 98Red’s post #6 (less the tensioner pulley) is exactly what I’m thinking of.
Thanks to everyone for the comments and the links so far; keep them coming.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
The original factory setup (in the first picture) all fits with no issues; I test fitted it all prior to powdercoating the brackets. All the rest of the A/C inside the body is removed (for now) so I’m trying to delete pulleys and reduce belt flapping distance between pulleys.
If I go with the A/C delete pulley I’ll also need a smog pump delete pulley and bracket; this is because the angle of the belt coming off the alternator will hit the power steering pump pulley on the way to the water pump pulley.
The only issues I see are:
Changing to a standard rotation water pump and the smooth water pump pulley riding on the ribbed side of the belt in the second picture (my drawing) all the other pulleys are riding on the correct side of the belt
Fabbing of the tensioner pulley bracket in the only place I can see it fitting (also in the second drawing.)
I won’t be back to the car until Tue or Wed I’ll take some pictures and post what I think it will look like.
Thanks oldalaskaman, looks like 98Red’s post #6 (less the tensioner pulley) is exactly what I’m thinking of.
Thanks to everyone for the comments and the links so far; keep them coming.
If I go with the A/C delete pulley I’ll also need a smog pump delete pulley and bracket; this is because the angle of the belt coming off the alternator will hit the power steering pump pulley on the way to the water pump pulley.
The only issues I see are:
Changing to a standard rotation water pump and the smooth water pump pulley riding on the ribbed side of the belt in the second picture (my drawing) all the other pulleys are riding on the correct side of the belt
Fabbing of the tensioner pulley bracket in the only place I can see it fitting (also in the second drawing.)
I won’t be back to the car until Tue or Wed I’ll take some pictures and post what I think it will look like.
Thanks oldalaskaman, looks like 98Red’s post #6 (less the tensioner pulley) is exactly what I’m thinking of.
Thanks to everyone for the comments and the links so far; keep them coming.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
From the looks of it, that PS pulley has grooves in it, if I am seeing this correctly, the set-up is WRONG!
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 575
Likes: 3
From: Tampa / Ft. Myers FL
Solid LT1, no it's a smooth P/S pulley.
This is a very rough prototype of a bracket I’m considering building out of aluminum. It’s a bit large at this point but I wanted to make sure the tensioner from the Firebird or Camaro I stumbled across on my junkyard run the other day: Junkyard Post I would like to run the tensioner to get some more belt contact with the water pump pulley (which I need to find a ribbed one.) I’m not sure what would be a good thickness for the aluminum the template is 3/4 plywood; probably a little thick for the bracket though. I have no idea at this point what thickness aluminum stock even comes in. I’m throwing this out here for some suggestions / criticism. My wife does a little autocad so I figured I’d have her draw it up and find a machinist or try and cut it out myself.
This is a very rough prototype of a bracket I’m considering building out of aluminum. It’s a bit large at this point but I wanted to make sure the tensioner from the Firebird or Camaro I stumbled across on my junkyard run the other day: Junkyard Post I would like to run the tensioner to get some more belt contact with the water pump pulley (which I need to find a ribbed one.) I’m not sure what would be a good thickness for the aluminum the template is 3/4 plywood; probably a little thick for the bracket though. I have no idea at this point what thickness aluminum stock even comes in. I’m throwing this out here for some suggestions / criticism. My wife does a little autocad so I figured I’d have her draw it up and find a machinist or try and cut it out myself.