That varies by person and even changes over time. What I once thought of as 'fast' isn't so 'fast' amymore. You tell us and then you will have your answer.

And frankly, I don't give two hoots what someone else thinks about what I consider 'fast'. I like it and that's what matters.

 

My 67 Camaro RS/SS 350 was only 290hp from the factory.
I didn't consider it "fast" then (1969) until I had it up to 400hp with 4.11 rear and a BW Super T-10.
My brother just came to see me with his 2011 Camaro and out of the box it would kick my old 67's azz and handle much better doing it.
So now, I have to build a 550+hp for my 75 vette so I can own him.

Its all relative and all based upon the individual.

Peace
Bman (Dennis)

 

Its never enough. Got maybe 100 mi on a 385 thats near the 600 mark and almost doesnt feel fast to me Getting bored with it already. May try tuning it some more. Shoulda boosted it.

 

Boy howdy! MOAR IS NEVER ENOUGH FOR SOME OF US!

 

True statement. If your one of those guys and know it always overbuild the bottom end.

 

My thoughts exactly. Not so cheap insurance.

 

Roller cam. This one will stir up some trouble. My opinion is if you want roller cam performance and lift use a roller cam not a fast ramp flat tappet. If you use a hydraulic flat tappet stick with moderate ramps and sub .450 lift and sacrifice some power for long term durability. The Howards retro roller cam line from summit is a quality billet cam with good lifters and run a little over $500 for both, a cam button is $10. Downside is the choices are limited but there is a cam for most builds. A flat tappet, nitrided cam with hard faced lifters is over $300. A roller will outperform a flat tappet in most instances, you don't need special oil (at a higher price every 3000 miles, add that up over the life of the engine), and a similar duration roller cam will have better vacuum, streetability and fuel milage compared to a flat tappet both big pluses especially when building a mid performance engine with a 3.08 gear and factory auto trans you don't plan on upgrading. If you have great heads a roller cam is a necessity to get the full benefit of those heads. If your building a radical engine the same "better vacuum and streetability" is MOAR important. If your happy with a 210 HP engine buy a flat tappet, set it up right, break it in right and use the right oil. If you absolutely, positively can't afford it buy a flat tappet but if you want cheap, durable and fast a roller cam is the best "extra" couple hundred you will spend on any build.

 

I think that at any level the roller is king, not always necessity, but well worth it for any build level & apparently the auto manufacturers feel the same as you don't see flat tappets in new vehicles. Hell Harley Davidson puts rollers in their bikes.

 

Fast?

I've learned that it's relative.

My 1st vette, a stock 76, was super fast to me.

A trooper told me last week that my Cavalier (stock) was "too fast" at 65mph.
(He had a compelling argument to support his claim)

I think 0 - 60 times, are a better safer way to rate speed than top out these days.

I did buy a 200mph speedometer though, and feel much better.

 

Ok. Maybe a better question. Other than racing, why the need or want for an engine that produces HUGE hp, when the car is a dd or a weekend cruiser?

"because I or we can" is not a real answer BTW.

Interested....

 

Sure it's a real answere. Something about the torque at every day driving when it physically pushes you in to the seat under light throttle that makes the ride so much more enjoyable. It might not be for everyone though.

 

Sure it is Power is fun Everyone likes to be pushed back in their seat - a strong pull up through the gears is part of the Corvette experience, as is pushing hard into a corner and powering on coming out...all part of the deal. There doesn't have to be a "rational" reason.

But when it comes to "MOAR" what's often overlooked in these discussions, as I've brought up many times, is that the car has to be capable of putting the power to the pavement with matching investments in tires, wheels, driveline suspension, chassis, brakes, etc. The upgrades required to really USE that 500 HP will often far outstrip the cost of the engine.

Consider other costs often completely overlooked. For example, will that high-rise dual- or single-plane intake required at these power levels fit under a stock hood? What is the cost of an aftermarket hood...and matching paint? Do you even want that "look" for your 'Vette? What about the fuel system? It's a long list, and the aphorism I would say always applies to making mods to your 'Vette is "begin with the end in mind" - know what it will really take to get the results you're shooting for.

500 HP in a stock C3 chassis - especially one that is worn out - isn't going to be much fun.

 

Flat-tappet cams are still a very viable choice for many performance builds and performance upgrades. No question that a roller cam is the right choice if you can afford it and it's right for the build - but it's important to look at the benefits for a particular build vs. just making a flat recommendation. Flat-tappet cams are fine out to about .500 lift - if your heads can use that level of lift, then no question that a roller cam is the right choice.

Rather than "stacking the deck" with the most expensive possible flat-tappet and a relatively "no-name" retrofit roller, let's look at a more realistic comparison:

CompCams XE262H High Energy flat-tappet cam: $185
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-CL12-238-2/

CompCams XR252HR hydraulic roller cam: $715
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-CL12-407-8/

...that looks like about $530 to me. We'll also need an inexpensive cam button and ideally a better front cover. Much of this cost can be avoided on a new build by using a factory roller shortblock, reusing the retainers and lifters...a definite cost advantange.

As for "special" oil for flat-tappets, virtually any newly-built performance engine is going to be running a quality synthetic. The difference in cost between a quality SM/SN synthetic and one with the appropriate amount of ZDDP is negligible...and of course, oil doesn't get changed any more often with a flat-tappet cam.

Break-in requires more care, but backyard mechanics have been doing it for 60 years, it's not difficult for anyone to do and of course it gets done successfully tens of thousands of times per year.

Roller cams are a smart buy if you can afford it and for the right application, but there's plenty of fast, cheap, durability in flat-tappet cams in the right application.

 

I ran the xe262h in the l-48 & didn't have issues. So I know that it can be done. As I beleive scotty99 stated, it seems as if much larger than that particular cam and your chances increase with flat tappet failure. As far a figureing in the price of push rods you'd probably have to replace the push rods in a newer style block build also givin that the block might be decked, gasket thickneses and head configuration. With this being said if your building an engine and can afford a roller it's smartly invested money. If you can't then its as you said the lift selections are limited but not the end of a build.

 

That's fair; I added it thinking mostly about retrofit "tops" - but completely right that it's a wash between the the two in a new build (and even potentially a retrofit) so I edited that out but wanted to be transparent about it.

 

But we are talking durability. GM used hard faced lifters in their flat tappet cams for a reason. durability. You should do the same, makes good sense and cost more. If you are surpassing the hydraulic intensity of the ramp that was considered "safe" back when all oil had plenty of ZDDP nitriding the cam is a durability requirement anyone should seriously consider if using a flat tappet cam. Howards uses billet cam cores standard which are an upgrade cost from most manufacturers. If your putting durability and long term cost first the nitrided flat tappet and billet roller are both good ideas. I thought the comparison was valid and not stacking the deck. There is a real good reason GM or any other domestic manufacturer hasn't used a flat tappet cam in any of their engines in the past 25 years.

 

Person today with extreme gas prices with the intention of it being a daily driver or cruiser is not going to generally build a super high horsepower car. Thats cool if thats what you want.

Most people can't afford a dedicated race car along with the expense of a nice street car. So most of the time they will build a very high horsepower car licensed that can still be driven on the street most of the time. Hence the saying a street strip car or like the case of gkulls car still very useable as a street car and very good as a road race car for him.

You can't make any practical sense arguments with old C2/C3 corvettes. It has only room for two people. Pituful amount of lugage space especially 1977 on down models. Take my 66 vert with hardtop and soft top down almost zero lugage space, with the soft top removed still extremely limited. Unless all you have to drive is the vette have to drive it. It makes no more sense trying to drive it as a daily driver as building more power then any street tire could handle on a very high horsepower car.

If you have a low hp L/48 keeping the car original you have no power for any real power thrills driving it but still the pitifull gas millage.

So old corvettes make sense as two things a weekend toy cruiser or as your high horsepower thrill machine when you can get away with it on the street or much better yet taking to a racetrack for the thrills. No it still won't be as fast as dedicated race car but it can still be respectible and power thrill to drive.

 

Yet the vast majority of aftermarket cams aren't nitrided and manage to survive. I would see nitriding as some level of insurance if an owner is pushing that .500 lift limit...and likely bad insurance at that as they'd be better to simply go to a roller cam if they're pushing reasonable flat-tappet limits.

In the same vein, billet cams certainly aren't required for the vast majority of builds.

There's a reason there are tens of millions of cheap, fast and durable aftermarket flat-tappet cams out there.

Regardless, not an apples-to-apples comparison from my perspective, which is why I posted specific links. Folks can make up their own minds from the information presented.

 

If you question "why the need for speed", then any answer given is not going to make sense to you....either you "have the need" or you don't. It's in the hotrodder's "DNA"; weekend cruising, or whenever, deep down you're always in a racing "state of mind". Whatever you drive, you'll always want to feel the torque pushing your butt at any given time. The more, the better. Not because you plan on reckless driving or getting tickets, but you also savor the reserve power if you need it.

 

It wouldn't matter if I drove a prius, it would still be driven as if it had 400 horse. Im just saying.