This is a quote from Motorhead, don't want to plagiarize.
He spent $14,000 on his 600 HP 427 SB, I spent a little over $6000 on a 500 HP 383. There are hundreds of different options when building a new engine. It is possible to build a 500 HP 383 for $4000 and also possible to build the same power level for $10,000. The difference can be streetability, durability, parts quality and how much your willing or able to do yourself. There are many threads on the forum on building a powerful street engine and many places to save money or cut corners. You have guys with an L48 that want 350 hp and spend $1000. If it is fast and cheap it won't be durable. There are guys that want to build that $4000 500 HP 383. Same issue, if it is fast and cheap it won't be durable. If you build the $10,000 383 correctly your using top quality parts, not cutting corners on machining and will likely end up with a fast, durable engine but it isn't cheap. If you build a durable engine for a cheap price it won't be fast. The point I am trying to stress here is pick two. It don't work any other way and there are no shortcuts. The weakest link always breaks and power cost money.

 

The philosophy is spot on. Just like all of the guys who think they can go to the junk yard buy an LS motor and get it installed all for under $4k. A good LS after market wiring harness and computer is $1500 or so. LS headers will cost a lot, etc, etc, etc. An LS motor requires dyno tuning at $500 a pop. There are no shortcuts to performance. They key commodity to have is patience. Patience costs nothing and forces more research. Research is also free.

Ive learned the hard way that it is cheaper to do it once the right way, than twice on the cheap. Twice on the cheap is when luck is in your favor. It can take more than twice in many circumstances. Im dumber than most, so life for me can be very tough!!! LOL

 

Yep,
There needs to be a sticky section called 'Sage Advice'. Motorhead's quote should be the first entry. He nailed it.

 

Actually that quote can originally be attribute to Smokey Yunick. Supposedly it was on a sign in his garage.

 

Should be a "spirited" discussion - let's hope it stays on-target to focus on the idea.

Like most generalities, this sounds like good, simple advice - but it doesn't play out in real life. Let's tear those three very subjective, very individual terms down and then look at some specific examples. In the end, I would offer that these are all simply aspects of engine design that a smart builder (or buyer) balances to make the right choices for their application.

Durable: What does this really mean? The answer is it means different things to different people. A professional drag racing engine gets torn down every 1,000'. A guy building an engine for his treasured '69 convertible is praying that it lasts his lifetime because the significant other isn't going to let him build another one Taking those extremes, I'd offer that durability is what the owner determines it should be - generally that the engine will deliver the desired power for the desired use for the timeframe the owner expects. This is simply an aspect of design - not "budget", not, "cheap", not "fast"...just design...for a purpose. Is a hypereutectic piston less durable than forged for a strong street engine? No...unless the owner decides to try to get something for nothing and puts a 250 shot through it. Is an aftermarket cast crank less durable than a forged one? No...unless the intended use is drag racing, the power levels are through the roof and the 4600# car hooks really well through drag radials. We know how that story is going to end. So I would offer for durability, the aphorism is simply that you don't get something for nothing - if durability is important to you then ensure it's built-in to your design.

Cheap: One guy's "cheap" is another guy's "impossible" - everyone has different means and different amounts of cash to put into their 'Vettes. I've always said that an engine someone can afford, in the frame rails and running, is better than the engine they can't sitting on the stand for years on end. The idea that someone can't make reliable power within a limited budget is just hogwash - this is the essence of American hotrodding: ingenuity in place of dollars. And in a way, it's the story of the Corvette - Zora saved the 'Vette by packaging up an American sports car cheap enough for the average guy to own with creative design and engineering. This can be done at any build level, but when the build level and the claimed spend don't match - ask the builder for all reciepts. "I got an airline ticket to Paris for $20" is a lot like "I made fast, cheap, durable 500 HP for $5K" - both require verification. Where "cheap" goes wrong is when corners are cut, when the design doesn't match the application or (most commonly) when the build level doesn't match power output. But, once again - this is simply a design flaw - either in the engine or in the "interface between seat and thottle" - nothing more. The bottom line is that "cheap" is relative - and "cheap" shouldn't be confused with "stupid".

Fast: Oh, this is the fun one isn't it? That 500 HP number gets thrown around so much...yet it's so very rarely seen in real life. If I had a dime for every time someone said "It makes 500 HP" only to put down 250+ on the chassis dyno, Warren Buffet would be paying ME $3M for lunch. And it's worth noting that many, many C3 owners are putting out probably 300 HP or less at the flywheel and loving it. Fast is really, really in the eye of the beholder. Some guys drive a bone-stock C3 and love the power...I know my '69 L-46/M-21/3.70 had plenty of "snort" and I loved that car with a passion. Some scoff at 350 HP and say 500 is the absolute minimum, and in turn get laughed at by guys running a huge blower and making 750...who in turn get dismissed by those making 1,100 and winning dyno runs at shows. Yet the 1,100 HP car doesn't see many cruises, and the less-than-300 HP guys are out all the time. In the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, there's discussion of the constant of "R" for speed - with "R" being a rational and prudent speed and "R43" (I think) being "clearly far too fast". I think every 'Vette owner wants "R+" or they'd be driving a Prius...but that multiplier is just another aspect of design.

So - I would offer that you can have fast (meets your need for speed), cheap (fits your budget) and durable (lasts as long as you need it to)...you just need to do smart design to achieve all of these in balance.

So let's apply this aphorism to a few specific engines common to hot-rodding in general and the C2/C3 'Vette in particular. I'm sure this is where the rubber will hit the road in the discussion

GMPP 350/290 HP Crate: $2K for nearly 300 FWHP...that sounds pretty fast and cheap to me, and with proven durability. It might get derided for not making "MOAR" power - but this is around the power a stock early C3 came with...and it's no slouch.

L31 Long Block Refresh: Oh my, but this is going to kick off some discussion. Back in the day, performance-seekers could often grab a used performance engine and re-ring/rebearing it and go. Those days are pretty much gone with a GEN I...or are they? Relatively late-model engines tend to show little or no internal wear even at 100K+. Yes, for a cheap build I have done the bottle-brush hone on a solid L31 Vortec, replaced the cam and on it goes. This would meet my definition of "cheap" - false economy to some extent. Yet...these engines made around 350 FWHP and are still going strong after 3 years of having the snot driven out of them. Would I recommend this? No - the guys I did it for were 100% clear on what they were getting and for all of them it was more of a lark than anything else...but they keep running strong.

GEN I 383: I've built a bunch of flat-tappet cam, SCAT cast/hypereutectic, Vortec (or other tier 1) head 383s for less than $4K fully dressed. They've all been right around the 360-400 HP range depending on cam and installation. That is a lot of power for not a lot of money, and these days with Summit and a local shop I can turn these out in about a week.

3 engines as examples - all making great power/$ and nothing to sneeze at - all under the $5K max budget 60%+ of folks noted as their limit in the engine poll - - all could reasonably be expected the last the life of the owner properly used and maintained.

Fast, cheap and durable

<nomex ON>

 

Great thread. Damn near the same discussion I have been having with my dad as I am deciding in what to do with my motor, rebuild or replace.

I have defined what I use my car for and have based my resto/mod decisions around that.

I have viewed that GM 350/290 crate more than once. 290 is the gross hp, but what is the net hp? Reality, that motor probably fits my needs for budget, durability, and increased speed over my stock L48.

There is a performance garage near me and they have a dyno, the nickname for it is "the heart breaker"

 

 

Ive been thinking of using a big block in my next build of a chrome bumper C3. Billa's logic and some forum member endorsements got me to look at vortecpro engines. They are a good contrast to the engine I would normally consider from ultrastreet.net.

Vortec uses old original blocks and heads combined with a lot of machining to turn out good BBC motors. Ultrastreet uses Dart blocks, AFR heads, etc. to turn out a higher tech product, but a more expensive product. Both approaches have good reputations and good performance.

Im glad our forum members have so much knowledge and experience. I have learned a lot recently.

 

 

Hyper pistons. First thing I will address here. The piston on a performance build is what really gets the most abuse. High piston speed, high heat, detonation,( not always able to be heard), high cylinder pressure. Hyper pistons have there place and it isn't at the dragstrip. I would say a good hyper piston. with proper clearances and ruing end gaps, is safe for a sub 6000 RPM build with 1 hp per CI and a known safe DCR with a proper timing curve and A/F ratio.
If you plan on a higher compression build and a streetable cam (pushing the DCR threshold), Plan on seeing 6000 RPM or more often, are not sure of your tuning ability, plan on any power adders or upgrades ever, Plan on seeing track time, or are going much over 1 HP per CI the extra couple hundred for a set of low expansion forged pistons is a good logical investment. JMHO!
Will be back later, lunch is over.

 

I agree with this in general, although I would take the power levels a bit higher than noted - out as far as 1.2 HP/CID or so, depending on use. Agreed that any power-adders mean an immediate no. General rule of thumb I use is that if a forged crank is needed...then so are forged pistons.

The bolded comments are true for any design - even a forged assembly isn't going to hold up to any significant detonation.

Hypereutectics are fast, cheap and durable...when used correctly...otherwise, they're just dumb

I suspect the challenge in this discussion will be around the idea of upgrades - that especially the short block should always be built to a much higher level ("overbuilt") to accomodate future power increases. It's generally good thinking...if there's a practical expectation this could be the case. But again, many builders will be "one and done" - so it's just another design criteria to be considered.

It's worth noting that racing is a very different scenario - and I expect not a particularly common one among the community. When the racer with the deepest pockets is setting the bar for the class...then there aren't a lot of choices: match the investment level or go home. I would offer that building a racing engine is a different scenario with different "rules"...and a different discussion.

I'm off for the weekend myself - should be interesting to see how this all sorts out by Monday

 

I’m no motorhead expert, but I have some experience having a couple of small blocks rebuilt. One was a 327 in a 66 Vette (set up for what we use to call “three quarter race” for street use); the other was the same 327 – after I swallowed a valve doing a buck twenty down route 240 (I pulled the studs out of the head). I was lucky the block was still good. So I had it punched out 30 over and tricked out with a 671 blower with dual quad AFB’s, a solid lifter 310 cam, and aluminum 7 to 1 blower pistons – among a long list of other things. This was for street use too. I know, pretty stupid, but that was forty years ago.

The point being, I’m not sure rebuilding an engine today is worth it - unless it’s something special. Unless the block is straight and doesn’t need any machining. Unless you have the smarts to put it all together yourself. There are a lot of reputable engine builders out there that can ship you a turn-key hot rod engine, or a ready to go short block, for a lot less money than you can rebuild your own. That’s what they do all day long.

Let’s face it, look what you have to go through to get that old boat anchor roaring. First you have to break it down – unless you want to pay the machine shop to do it. Then you have to get the block checked out. The first thing they will do is check for run out. If it’s already been punched out a few times, or if they have to cut say past 40 over just to take out the cylinder scoring, your dead. There’s a point where you just can’t cut it anymore. The cylinder walls get too thin. You’ll have cooling problems.

Next comes the acid bath, then they bake and mag it. If they find any cracks your dead. Then they line bore, deck and parallel, set new cam bearings and freeze plugs. That’s just the beginning. They’re just prepping the block, We’re not even talking crank, rods, and heads. The point is, the more machine work they have to do the higher the price tag. They haven’t even started the rebuild.

 

I used hypers in a 383 for a pickup truck for towing with extra cooling, ported hump heads, 9.3 CR, lots of ARP fasteners, mild cam, under 5K rpm.
But my vette 383 is all forged, alum heads, ARP, 11.0 CR, roller cam and about twice as much $ as the truck's motor.
But no skimping on the machine work, cooling, lubricating, ARP fasteners.

Bman

 

From a money only aspect I would agree with you.

BUT - from a personal satisfaction POV - there is nothing like building your OWN engine with your own hands and listening to that puppy roar when its done.
IMO

Bman

 

Thats how I feel about it. I spent more than if I had bought an engine from shaffiroff, but at the end of the day I built it. My thoughts on an "over built bottom end" are that if its performance based it should be built as close to bullet proof as funds alow. It would be a true heart break to get 6 to 8k invested into maybe the only engine you might get to build only to have some aspect of the bottom end let go catistrophically when and extra 500.00 to a 1000.00 could have been spent and saved all the work, effort and enjoyment you just lost, besides I don't know if it's only me, but MOAR is never enough.
jmo blue.

 

100% That is a big reason I lean toward recommending a roller cam for any performance build. A roller cam will outperform a flat tappet in all aspects except price but........... If that flat tappet cam fails, even 20,000 miles down the road that extra money was well spent. That is where fast, durable or cheap, pick two comes into play.

 

In my opinion its also cheaper to buy a roller cam and lifters than another rebuild were the first flat tappet failure warranted a roller, not to mention the repeated effort. With this being said, I ran the comp xe262h for 10,000miles with know issues, did make me a little nervous with the break in procedure, but it worked. But I told myself then that I would only use a roller after that.

 

Never worry about bottom end problems, its when you get nuts with the valvetrain. Even with buying all the top components I know my valvetrain at some point will take the motor out. Large solid roller/springs etc. They just wont last forever and dont trust hydraulics to last being buzzed hard...not yet anyway. So reliable can take on different meanings.

Solution is to just build bigger with less rpm.

 

Just to add to the pot I'll include my story. My engine for the 77 project started life in a 1981 Corvette. It has 3XXXX miles documented via youtube video and it will run excellent documented in a pre-pull video supplied by the seller, complete from carburetor to oil pan, including the OE motor mounts and an original starter. 210 advertised HP is adequate for the purpose since this is strictly a cruiser for me (and the wife)... durability is at least as good as factory since GM built the thing, and cost was ridiculously low at $400 so I posit I have it ALL.... fast, cheap and durable.

 

You have cheap and durable. 210 HP isn't fast.............