Not sure if this should go in the tech, or the general section...

I had PLANNED on buying a long block to do a 383 build...in the next 5 years or so, depending on finances. It's simply cheaper to do that, than to start bare. But that's changed. My buddy, who is the one who helps me out with a lot of my mechanical problems, up till the past month or so, has died. And I just kinda decided...that now I want to do a motor the way HE would do it...from scratch. Start with a bare block, and go from there. Which is, right now, outa my league, in my opinion. But I'm willing to learn, and willing to find the materials needed TO learn. I also have another change of plans, and one some of you might argue with me about...I don't think I want to do a 383 anymore. I kinda want a higher revving, lower torque, high hp motor, if that's doable with a SBC.

My reasoning for that is, in the past 6 years or so, I have driven a lot of cars, thanks to my writing for a little website called "guy.com". I find people that own cool cars, and give them the opportunity to get published. I drive their car, put it through some paces, then set up a good photoshoot of the car, and write about my experience. To date, I have driven...HARD...a 2009 ZR1, a mildly modified 96' Porsche 911, a couple different STI's, a 95' Volvo 850R (don't ask how THAT got in there, lol), a 93' NSX, a 2010 BMW M3, 87 Buick Grand National, a FAST 84 El Camino with a blown 454, an LS1 swapped 87' Porsche 944, a 76' Datsun Z, a 93 Nissan 300 ZX, a 2002 350 Z, and just recently, the new 370 Z. There are some other less noteworthy cars, these are the ones that stand out (yes, even that volvo). Of ALL of these cars, I would say the ZR1 was hands down the fastest all around, though with better rubber, that blown 454 el camino would probably smoke it...in a drag race. But, of all of these cars, my favorite to drive, by FAR, was the M3. None of the others compared.

Now, I have no illusions of making my C3 drive like the M3, or even like that Volvo, lol. However, what I learned from the M3 is, regardless of how fast I'm going...I LIKE spinning a motor out...I've been driving my vortec swapped 350, which is now tuned to the best I can get it...and it's fun...but it lacks top end. I imagine if I got it on a dyno, the hp numbers would sadden me, but the torque would not. It's ALMOST like driving a diesel. You can FEEL the power...but it doesn't REALLY get you down the road, especially not past 2nd gear. I know that getting a better tranny/rear gear set up would fix SOME of this...but it wouldn't fix the fact that my motor, currently is a low end grunter. And what I want, is a top end screamer.

Ideally, I'd like something that makes between 400-500hp, as close to 500 as my budget would allow, and 300 torque, that can rev to 7k. Is this a stupid idea?

 

Beyond deciding what sort of motor I want to build, is the basics of doing so. My library has a pretty good "do it yourself" section, even a few mechanical books, but nothing of the sort I really need, I don't think. I know books stores sell chevy motor building books...but having a bought a few of these sorta of car books over the years, I'm leary...some are just plain NOT helpful. Anyone know a good one that really helped them out? Preff something for laymen, idiots, and morons, like me.

Past that, I am trying to put together a list of things I need, and the general cost of them, so I can form some type of budge, and then plan how long it's gonna take me to piece all of this together.

First and foremost, a decent engine stand...which I figure, if I can find one used, would set me back...80 bucks? I've got a pretty good collection of tools already, but are there specific things I'm gonna need? Things beyond the standard wrench and screw driver set...

I have other questions about things to get, but they are specific to the motor I want to build, I think...so I'm gonna wait and see what you guys think about trying to build something like what I have in mind.

Thanks for everything, guys!

 

May your friend rest in peace.

The high pitched rpms a screaming of a SBC has always been the poor mans ferrari engine. Never mind that neither one has any good low in rpm torque. The higher rpm rush in of power/torque now moved up higher is good for the soul.

Tractor torque is nothing i have one that puts out 1400 ft lbs but only 380 hp. Easy to drive just no fun to drive would not outrun a decent go kart.

Building something you like is not stupid, building what someone else likes is stupid. Stick to what you want.

 

There was a thread on here over the last year from a fella who took his time ands built one with tons of advice from a number of folks. I don't remember his thread, but it was a step by step 383 build. Reading it would give you some good insight.

 

I built my 406 to rev.....and it still has tons of torque. So much in fact I put MT drag radials on the rear to stop the second gear hula dance I was doing while running up the rpms....(7000 rpms easy)

My advice would be to stick with the 383 plan,..cam it to rev, and have fun with it. The added torque is a bonus, and it's practically free. (Gotta buy some sort of crank anyway,...so why not a stroker)

 

This might help - "S A Designs SA116 - SA Design Books: Rebuilding The Small-Block Chevy" - I bought it at Jegs for about $30.

I built my first motor using the step-by step guide (a vortec-headed 350). My only previous experince was with basic stuff like swapping out carburetors, starters, etc - nothing deep into the engine itself.

I have since graduated to a decent 383 that i also built - this book is a good useful introductory course for a beginner - if you pair this up with research and knowledge gained by asking around the forum, or working with anyone you might know that has some good experience, you can definately do it yourself.

Agree with Money Pit - stick with the 383 plan.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your buddy.

Well, considering that HP=torque at 5250rpm and considering that a 500hp @ 7000rpm motor is making 375 ft-lbs of torque I would say your plan is not correct....

You do know that HP is just a measure of the work the torque can do? In other words, you always want as much torque as possible and you want the torque to continue to the higher rpm's to get more work out of it.

The other issue is that you don't want to give up on the low end power to the point the engine is a dog at the lower rpm's and needs to be running at 2k+ rpm or else it bucks and surges because you'll find that tiring to drive on the street as well.

I'd bet you'd like a roller cammed engine that can rev to 6.5k or so. How did you like the LS powered cars? Think one with a bit more cam would suit your desires? Using a newer factory roller equipped block you can build a 383 that drives runs similar.

 

C3Paul

 

 

Maybe you should try to get behind the wheel of on old '70 LT-1 'vette, with a close ratio 4-speed and a nice, steep gear, like a 4.11, see how you like that. It might help give you a frame of reference when planning your engine build.


Keep the shiny side up!
Scott

 

The zr1 and 944 are the only LS powered cars I have driven, to date, and to honest, I didn't love the ZR1. Frankly, its TOO powerful. Just too much car for me. I did a standing start burnout in it...from 3rd gear. Driving spiritedly requires extreme concentration, and to be honest, at no point would I ever attempt the shenanigans in it that I do in my vette. I don't want a car that I can only have fun in onsome sort of closed course. The Porsche was fun, but I felt like it needed more gusto. It was a basic ls1 swap from a camaro, the owner told me. The BMW v8 revs to 8k, which is why it can develop under 300 torque, but just over 400hp. And it too was a tad anemic, in a car that weights 3800 pounds...but man, its fun to drive. That car made me a fan. I doubt building an 8k revving motor is very budgetable...I'm hoping to put together a plan that is between 5-7 grand. Also, the BMW motor is smaller, less rotational mass. I shoot for 300 torque or so, also, so that I can play without constantly breaking stuff. Depending on how long this plan takes me, I SHOULD also have a TKO 500 lined up, with maybe a kit, or a collection of parts, for that swap. THAT plan has not changed. Combine that with 3.55 rear gears, with maybe a 7.5k screamer? Is the 383 the best bet, still? I also don't want to run into drive train issues...too much torque, and the TKO has to become a 600, which is more, and new half shafts, etc. I DO want to see this thing approaching "finished" before I die, lol.

 

Check out the Dart SHP 400ci block.A new beefed up small block with provisions for a roller cam.You could go mild or wild with your build.Ohio Crankshaft has some good options and prices.I plan on installing one of these blocks in the near future....Good Luck...Wish you and your lost friend's family all the best.....Aloha's

 

ya know.......if you took a Dart block, with a 4.155" bore, and put a 3" crank in it, you'd have a 325 c.i. rev monster! With the short stroke, you could rev it pretty high without having to spend a fortune on bulletproof parts, just bullet resistant.


Keep the shiny side up!
Scott

 

Isn't the TKO500 rated for 500 ft-lbs of torque. Really, it depends on how you drive it because a little finess can really help make parts last. I would think getting closer to 400ft-lbs would likely make you happier. Especially if you think the LS1 car and the BMW were a little underwhelming.

Maybe it would help if you could describe what or why you found running the BMW up to 8k so much fun.

I'd say that a small block that pulls hard to 6k rpm could be done by a first timer if you understand and pay attention to the details. I'm not sure a 8k rpm motor would be realistic though.

Maybe a 350 with a smaller solid flat-tappet cam???

 

The word torque seems to be thought of by most as only a low rpm thing. If the engines are the same size the engine turning more rpm makes more torque its just now moved up higher. You put a 350 up to 7500 rpm look at the highest torque reading it will have higher numbers then same 350 capable of 6000 rpm. So your trans sure does not get a pass on torque because the rpm went up.

smaller engines create less torque.

 

Well you can buy a Dart SHP block with a 4.125 bore and 350 mains. Bore it to 4.155. Get a 3" stroke crank (same as 283). Fully forged bottom end, 6.30 rods to lighten up the pistons. This gets you 325 CI. With a set of AFR 195 heads, 13 to 1 compression and a big solid roller cam set up to run pump gas. It would buzz to 8000+ RPM, get you 450-500 HP. Good match for a TKO 600 and a 4.56 gear and it would rev like a ferrari.

Edit: I swear I did not see scottyp99's post before I posted this. Weird

 

Buy the shp block with a big bore build a 377.

Long strokes smaller bores work better if your keeping rpms down. If your going up in rpm use the the bigger bore 350 size stroke.

Me and a friend built a 348 using a 400 block 327 large journal crank with trw main spacers. it easly made more power then the simular 355s i had built. The bigger bore really hepled unshrourd the valves of the lousy 23 degree angle. If you notice all heads are tested using around a 4.20 bore. They pull more airflow out of the same head. Of course about nobody uses a 4.20 bore so its a kind of balony deal to make the head work better then it ever going to on your engine.

Advantages of a short stroke if building the same size engine. Lower piston speed, rings travel less distance in the cylinder less wear over time on the rings. Going around smaller circle easier on the lower part of the block, less side loading on the cylinders and the rings, engine revs up quicker. Crank weighs less. Less windage problems made by going around in smaller circle. Easier for the harmonics of the crank to be removed by the harmonic dampner.

 

What I liked so much about the BMW is kinda hard to put into words...it was more than just ringing the motor out...it seemed like, even with the traction control off, that motor made exactly as much power as the car needed/tires could handle, throughout the entire powerband/drivetrain/speed traveled. Like, from a stand still, yes, you could do burnouts in it, but you had to consiously WANT to do one, where as, larger motors(427,454, etc), making more torque, you have to be careful to AVOID doing such, on a launch. Then you launch the BMW, which, again, even without traction control, is pretty easy, at least compared to a Z06, or even worse, a ZR1, and that car just pulls, and pulls, and pulls, all the way to 8,000rpms. First gear it pulls hard, even though it's short on torque, 2nd gear, pulls hard still, and it feels like it pulls just as hard in 2nd as it does in 1st, I swear. It feels like, the faster you go, the more power it makes, to go faster. It's almost like driving an RX7, if you've ever driven one...only the M3 has a LOT more *****. It's so smooth, and it just keeps pulling. It keeps you pressed in the seat. I guess what it is, is it's a combination of things. It's a smooth, high revving motor, yes, but it's also mated up just absolutely perfectly with the transmission (which were paddle shifters, which I absolutely hate...couldn't find one with the manual tranny). It provides the perfect amount of power, all across the board, for just about any gear, except after 4th. After 4th, the acceleration slows down noticeably...but then, after 4th, at high rpms, you've waved goodbye to 100mph.

I want that same sort of smoothness to the powerband...A 76 vette that you can launch hard with not TOO much wheel spin, but pulls HARD when you floor it after the launch, all the way to a higher rpm, screaming, and then the shift into the next gear, with another smooth application of power, pulls just as hard, etc. I'm really picky, lol. Not too much power....but enough....and it has to rev high.

 

So, I just looked up some stuff on summit...and the TKO trannies have gone DOWN in price since the last time I checked! Not only that, but there is only a 100 dollar difference between the 500 and the 600? That can't be right? Why in the hell would anyone buy a TKO 500, when, for pennies on the dollar, they can have the 600, and better options on the overdrive gear?

Also, a question about the dart blocks...I have two options, one piece rear main seal, and two piece...my car is a two piece rear main seal...are they interchangeable, and if so, are there advantages to either of them?

Also, when/if I order this block, can I have them machine it to the 4.155 bore, or would I have to get it, and take it to a machine shop?

One dart SHP 4.125 block, new, from summit, is 1,500 before shipping. Being the cheap creep I am, I then did a quick search for used ones, and turned up nothing, other than fleabay, and most of those were MORE than the summit deal.

For the AFR heads...if I select, say, 1991 as my engine year...would those then be for a vortec intake, and would I then be able to reuse the aluminum intake I have?

Also...I was looking at valve springs, because I have read that revving a motor high can cause them to bind, even if the cam is not lifting beyond the limits of the spring...I was thinking of getting the beehive valves springs just for my current motor...would those also be a good set to have on my heads, or should I just get pre-assembled heads?


Or are all of these questions best left for the technicians at AFR and Dart? I don't want to waste you guy's time, but I have a LOT of questions, and after the debacle I had with simply trying to determine the max list of stock vortec heads (EVERYONE on the net has an opinion on this, ranging from as low as .420 to as high as .480, which is a LOT of wiggle room, in the cam selection dept, lol), I'd just assume try to get as much info as I can from one source.

By and by, I went to the book store yesterday, and did not find that book mentioned in the previous post, so I guess I gotta order it from JEGS. I've never bought anything from them before, I usually go through summit, or local order at a shop.

Thanks in advance, guys!

 

I already have that. I've DEF decided that which ever way I go, I'm going roller cam.