which Thermostat
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,838
Likes: 10
From: Austin TX
Seriously? You guys want to argue against the need for oil temps to reach 212f? And do you really want to argue that coolant temps have little to do with oil temps?
Again, you're arguing against 1000 engineers who design engines through the decades. And again, I posted five docs above, that, I thought, spelled it out in very simple terms. Here's another:
From here:
http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/...s/viewall.html
...is this:
"Is there an ideal engine operating temperature?
190 degrees is probably ideal, with a quick warm-up. That's hot enough to boil off moisture and prevent sludging,..."
...and this:
"What's too hot? Too cold?
Lower temperatures results in rapid sludging."
...and this:
"Lower operating temperatures provide most people a false sense of security, but lower temperatures, either by thermostat or thermostat removal,.."
...and this:
"Much less than 190-degrees (operating temp) and moisture may start to accumulate in the oil."
...and this:
"Is there a minimum oil operating temperature?
Normal oil temperatures are going to be between 200 to 220 degrees F in most engines. It needs to evaporate water condensate that may have been built up in the system due to hot engine oil cooling down in ambient temperatures."
I've posted a half dozen easy to read docs that detail the arguement. I could easily post 200 more. I'd like to see ONE doc that disagrees. Just ONE credible doc that says it's not important that the oil temp reach the vapor point of water. Here's a good place to start: www.google.com
Again, you're arguing against 1000 engineers who design engines through the decades. And again, I posted five docs above, that, I thought, spelled it out in very simple terms. Here's another:
From here:
http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/...s/viewall.html
...is this:
"Is there an ideal engine operating temperature?
190 degrees is probably ideal, with a quick warm-up. That's hot enough to boil off moisture and prevent sludging,..."
...and this:
"What's too hot? Too cold?
Lower temperatures results in rapid sludging."
...and this:
"Lower operating temperatures provide most people a false sense of security, but lower temperatures, either by thermostat or thermostat removal,.."
...and this:
"Much less than 190-degrees (operating temp) and moisture may start to accumulate in the oil."
...and this:
"Is there a minimum oil operating temperature?
Normal oil temperatures are going to be between 200 to 220 degrees F in most engines. It needs to evaporate water condensate that may have been built up in the system due to hot engine oil cooling down in ambient temperatures."
I've posted a half dozen easy to read docs that detail the arguement. I could easily post 200 more. I'd like to see ONE doc that disagrees. Just ONE credible doc that says it's not important that the oil temp reach the vapor point of water. Here's a good place to start: www.google.com
Last edited by 73, Dark Blue 454; Nov 9, 2012 at 03:24 PM.
Had a 1976 L-82, 4-sp
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,338
Likes: 1,213
From: Some days your the dog and some days your the hydrant.
Royal Canadian Navy
73, Dark Blue 454....
Thank you so much for clarifying the limitations of my knowledge. But, I'm afraid that you have a very mistaken understanding of the operation of an internal combustion engine. The coolant temperature has only an indirect relationship to the engine operating temperatures. I say temperatureS because the temps at various locations throughout the engine can be widely different.
However, it is obvious (to most, anyway) that an engine with a coolant temperature of 180*F [or 160*F, for that matter) will be much hotter in other areas of the engine. The coolant is the media by which heat is being transferred, so that it can be released to the atmosphere. And for 'heat transfer' to take place, the temperature of the "object" must be significantly hotter than the cooling media. That being the case, the actual metallic portions of the engine may be at temperatures ranging from 250*F to several hundreds of degrees, inside the combustion chamber and at the exhaust manifold outlets.
For you to believe--and "advise" us--that the oil in an engine, with 180*F coolant, would not be hotter than 212*F means that you don't have much actual knowledge of engine operation.
We appreciate useful input, but it needs to be reasonably accurate.
Thank you so much for clarifying the limitations of my knowledge. But, I'm afraid that you have a very mistaken understanding of the operation of an internal combustion engine. The coolant temperature has only an indirect relationship to the engine operating temperatures. I say temperatureS because the temps at various locations throughout the engine can be widely different.
However, it is obvious (to most, anyway) that an engine with a coolant temperature of 180*F [or 160*F, for that matter) will be much hotter in other areas of the engine. The coolant is the media by which heat is being transferred, so that it can be released to the atmosphere. And for 'heat transfer' to take place, the temperature of the "object" must be significantly hotter than the cooling media. That being the case, the actual metallic portions of the engine may be at temperatures ranging from 250*F to several hundreds of degrees, inside the combustion chamber and at the exhaust manifold outlets.
For you to believe--and "advise" us--that the oil in an engine, with 180*F coolant, would not be hotter than 212*F means that you don't have much actual knowledge of engine operation.
We appreciate useful input, but it needs to be reasonably accurate.
Anyway, oil is a very robust lubricant and can take a lot of "punishment", for a lack of better words, and still get the job done. All engines wear no matter what the oil temperature is. If the oil happens to be a bit cooler than optimum, I doubt your engine will fail all that much sooner. I assume we're discussing dino oil. So lets discuss how a 160 deg ts effects wear using synthetic oil and various viscosities. 
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,112
Likes: 28
From: Florida
Many, many moons ago, in a God forsaken freezing climate, where no human should exist, before modern crankcase evacuation systems and with ancient oil chemistry in crude engines, it was common for breather caps, draft tubes and oil dipsticks to be loaded with a cream colored slime. Tstats were changed with the seasons and a hot 180° one for winter with short trips of only a couple miles every day for months on end collected all the moisture available to a crankcase.
Engines obviously never got hot enough no matter what tstat was in it.
Come spring time, a fresh oil change and a couple road trips, the oil looked fine again.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
No Sir, don't want to argue at all,
the fact that my opinion does not match yours does not mean I want to argue.
you post many exerts from articles that were found on the search engine you posted for us but how many of those articles are written by an OEM lubrication system designer/engineer?
After reading the articles you posted, I found issues with each one of them to one degree or another and can find little to no info on the authors as to if any are lubrication system designer/engineers.
I've read many articles on the subject as you have and understand what you're saying but have also read articles that indicate that the oil on the bottom of the piston will be from 50* to 75* hotter than the oil in the pan. This is what I was trying to explain when I posted that the oil temp in the pan is only an average of the oil temps from the engine.
I've also read that on the average oil temps will be 15* to 20* above water temps but this is just an average/estimate. Each one needs to measure temps on their engine to know what that temp difference is.
Neal
the fact that my opinion does not match yours does not mean I want to argue.
you post many exerts from articles that were found on the search engine you posted for us but how many of those articles are written by an OEM lubrication system designer/engineer?
After reading the articles you posted, I found issues with each one of them to one degree or another and can find little to no info on the authors as to if any are lubrication system designer/engineers.
I've read many articles on the subject as you have and understand what you're saying but have also read articles that indicate that the oil on the bottom of the piston will be from 50* to 75* hotter than the oil in the pan. This is what I was trying to explain when I posted that the oil temp in the pan is only an average of the oil temps from the engine.
I've also read that on the average oil temps will be 15* to 20* above water temps but this is just an average/estimate. Each one needs to measure temps on their engine to know what that temp difference is.
Neal
