borgeson steering vs steering rack kits
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,164
Likes: 7
From: Beringen
borgeson steering vs steering rack kits
What would be the best for driving ? I'm looking for a steering system that is both tight and very responsive, holds center really well and has excellent returnability.
I'm a bit concerned about the rack conversion as I read that the brackets flex alot + I'm using a Canton kicked out RR pan, which I'm not sure will clear the rack.
I'm a bit concerned about the rack conversion as I read that the brackets flex alot + I'm using a Canton kicked out RR pan, which I'm not sure will clear the rack.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
the rack is the best option when it comes to weight, response and the like. Just about every new sports car comes with a rack today.
Some of the things you list are a function of the alignment and suspension not so much the steering system itself.
Neal
Some of the things you list are a function of the alignment and suspension not so much the steering system itself.
Neal
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
I have done a few Borgeson conversions NEVER any problems. I was never too impressed with the multiple heim joints and multi-piece steering shafts of the rack conversions. Those brackets and offsets don't look very reliable to me but, what do I know.
One thing I know is I have over 10000 miles on a original "Jeep Box" kit from the now closed Corvette Steering Service (the owner Tom passed on a few years back RIP) This was the original intregal boost conversion and I'm still pleased with reliability and performance. Would love to hear from some high mileage rack usesr but think many of those cars are garage queens.
Search the forum for "steeriods problems" then do the same for "Borgeson or Jeep box problems" it should be easy to decide after that.
One thing I know is I have over 10000 miles on a original "Jeep Box" kit from the now closed Corvette Steering Service (the owner Tom passed on a few years back RIP) This was the original intregal boost conversion and I'm still pleased with reliability and performance. Would love to hear from some high mileage rack usesr but think many of those cars are garage queens.
Search the forum for "steeriods problems" then do the same for "Borgeson or Jeep box problems" it should be easy to decide after that.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,164
Likes: 7
From: Beringen
I have done a few Borgeson conversions NEVER any problems. I was never too impressed with the multiple heim joints and multi-piece steering shafts of the rack conversions. Those brackets and offsets don't look very reliable to me but, what do I know.
One thing I know is I have over 10000 miles on a original "Jeep Box" kit from the now closed Corvette Steering Service (the owner Tom passed on a few years back RIP) This was the original intregal boost conversion and I'm still pleased with reliability and performance. Would love to hear from some high mileage rack usesr but think many of those cars are garage queens.
Search the forum for "steeriods problems" then do the same for "Borgeson or Jeep box problems" it should be easy to decide after that.
One thing I know is I have over 10000 miles on a original "Jeep Box" kit from the now closed Corvette Steering Service (the owner Tom passed on a few years back RIP) This was the original intregal boost conversion and I'm still pleased with reliability and performance. Would love to hear from some high mileage rack usesr but think many of those cars are garage queens.
Search the forum for "steeriods problems" then do the same for "Borgeson or Jeep box problems" it should be easy to decide after that.
Is the Borgeson box progressive with its power assistance ?
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
Its a guess but I would say that there are probably 30 rack conversions to 1 Borgeson box install.
Most of the rack installs are DIY and based on the Grand Am rack. A lot of the discussions on the Steeroids system were from when it first came out. I believe the issues have been addressed with the brackets.
If your running a BB with side-pipe headers than forget the Borgeson or be prepared to hack the headers.
Your concerned about the steering shaft but you have no concerns about the multiple rod ends, idler arm and center link.
Sounds as if you already have your mind made up on what system you want.
Neal
Most of the rack installs are DIY and based on the Grand Am rack. A lot of the discussions on the Steeroids system were from when it first came out. I believe the issues have been addressed with the brackets.
If your running a BB with side-pipe headers than forget the Borgeson or be prepared to hack the headers.
Your concerned about the steering shaft but you have no concerns about the multiple rod ends, idler arm and center link.
Sounds as if you already have your mind made up on what system you want.
Neal
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
No the Borgeson is not progressive in boost but is a 12.7:1 ratio gear set this removes about 3/4 of a turn on your steering wheel full left to right turns. The steering boost or effort can be tuned by varying the orifice size in the power steering pump pressure fitting. Different size orifices can be bought from Lee power steering, Sweet steering or KRC components (I think Speedway Motors has them too.) I like my systems simple the intergal boost Saginaw box is a marvel. I think I answered your question.
Racer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 271
Likes: 25
From: Buena Vista Colorado
Steering is a slight bit lighter than stock, but I have not yet experimented with different orifices in the PS pump or with slightly increased toe-in. Even so, steering is pretty tight and very responsive with no wandering. It does hold center very well, and does have excellent returnability. I did set in the maximum amount of caster available in my very stock suspension. The Borgeson install was not difficult.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,164
Likes: 7
From: Beringen
Its a guess but I would say that there are probably 30 rack conversions to 1 Borgeson box install.
Most of the rack installs are DIY and based on the Grand Am rack. A lot of the discussions on the Steeroids system were from when it first came out. I believe the issues have been addressed with the brackets.
If your running a BB with side-pipe headers than forget the Borgeson or be prepared to hack the headers.
Your concerned about the steering shaft but you have no concerns about the multiple rod ends, idler arm and center link.
Sounds as if you already have your mind made up on what system you want.
Neal
Most of the rack installs are DIY and based on the Grand Am rack. A lot of the discussions on the Steeroids system were from when it first came out. I believe the issues have been addressed with the brackets.
If your running a BB with side-pipe headers than forget the Borgeson or be prepared to hack the headers.
Your concerned about the steering shaft but you have no concerns about the multiple rod ends, idler arm and center link.
Sounds as if you already have your mind made up on what system you want.
Neal
I know that with the stock system, the steering box puts the frame under a lot of load in the a location. I would therefor think it would need to really solid brackets to keep them from flexing.
Is the rack system progressive ?
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,666
Likes: 289
From: Spring Park MN
How can a reduced turning radius be dangerous? You only use the full lock turning at low speed. Even with a reduced turning radius, it is still a short wheelbase car, they will turn around in a much smaller area than my Avalanche. Does that make my Avalanche dangerous?
Drifting
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 6
From: Palos Verdes Peninsula California
I have done a few Borgeson conversions NEVER any problems. I was never too impressed with the multiple heim joints and multi-piece steering shafts of the rack conversions. Those brackets and offsets don't look very reliable to me but, what do I know.
One thing I know is I have over 10000 miles on a original "Jeep Box" kit from the now closed Corvette Steering Service (the owner Tom passed on a few years back RIP) This was the original intregal boost conversion and I'm still pleased with reliability and performance. Would love to hear from some high mileage rack usesr but think many of those cars are garage queens.
Search the forum for "steeriods problems" then do the same for "Borgeson or Jeep box problems" it should be easy to decide after that.
One thing I know is I have over 10000 miles on a original "Jeep Box" kit from the now closed Corvette Steering Service (the owner Tom passed on a few years back RIP) This was the original intregal boost conversion and I'm still pleased with reliability and performance. Would love to hear from some high mileage rack usesr but think many of those cars are garage queens.
Search the forum for "steeriods problems" then do the same for "Borgeson or Jeep box problems" it should be easy to decide after that.
. I did instructions for my install and sent them to him, and he liked them so much he sent me $200 in cash. I've had my Jeep box for years and thousands of miles with zero problems. Very easy to install too.I have nothing against the R&P setup, but if I was going to do it all over I would go for the Borgeson box
Pro
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 698
Likes: 8
From: Stockholm Sweden
Im not shure what you mean with "progressive"..?
If you mean that it takes very little effoert to rotate the steering wheel at low speeds and that the steering Wheel gets more "solid" at high speeds the answer is NO.
This function has nothing to do with the R&P and must be created in the power steering pump.
However it is possible to adjust the Vettes stock power steering pump pressure by changing out the pressure relief valve to get away from the old "Caddilac" feeling.
But it will never be very "progressive".
//Ricky.
If you mean that it takes very little effoert to rotate the steering wheel at low speeds and that the steering Wheel gets more "solid" at high speeds the answer is NO.
This function has nothing to do with the R&P and must be created in the power steering pump.
However it is possible to adjust the Vettes stock power steering pump pressure by changing out the pressure relief valve to get away from the old "Caddilac" feeling.
But it will never be very "progressive".
//Ricky.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,192
Likes: 343
From: Allenton Wisconsin
the 'steeroids'r&p steering will not have any clearance issues with a canton RR pan. the steering of the r&p as in comparison to manuel you loose the feel of the road, very easy to turn even when standing still [I even droped to a 14" steer wheel]. recommendation; don't let the passenger hold the steering wheel as you might end up in the next lane. the r&p steering is very quick. very nice on a RR track. I don't like OEM P/S, when I convert my 69 from OEM P/S I will go with the 'borgeson' as this car is a DD.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,192
Likes: 343
From: Allenton Wisconsin
footnote; spirited driving described as numerous events of engine RPM exceeding 6000 the PS pump will separate into numerous pieces causing an instant oil leak that gets under the rear tires very quickly ie; spinout. the pumps redline is 6000, has a 6" pully, the crank has a 6" pully therefore they run at the same speed.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
footnote; spirited driving described as numerous events of engine RPM exceeding 6000 the PS pump will separate into numerous pieces causing an instant oil leak that gets under the rear tires very quickly ie; spinout. the pumps redline is 6000, has a 6" pully, the crank has a 6" pully therefore they run at the same speed.
Really? That's news to me. I ran the factory LT-1 with a Canton racing 75-110 slighly smaller crank pulley for years to 7500 in drag racing/auto crossing and never had problems with my set up. H2O pump was regular LT-1 as was the deep groove cast iron steering pump pulley. I did swap out LT-1 alternator pulley for L-88 size pulley. Never lost a belt or suffered any problems with that setup.
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
I saw an electric power steering replcement colum that is speed sensitive .. should be easy to search on summit i think. I'm not shure how that would work with stock box or if has to be replaced... I think something like this may be the way to get speed sensitve boost.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,192
Likes: 343
From: Allenton Wisconsin
Really? That's news to me. I ran the factory LT-1 with a Canton racing 75-110 slighly smaller crank pulley for years to 7500 in drag racing/auto crossing and never had problems with my set up. H2O pump was regular LT-1 as was the deep groove cast iron steering pump pulley. I did swap out LT-1 alternator pulley for L-88 size pulley. Never lost a belt or suffered any problems with that setup.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,944
Likes: 20
From: The only Corvettes in Highett Victoria
Borgeson
Belgian,
The "returnability" of a steering system has a lot to do with the caster angle. Corvettes have an angle of about one degree, which was fine for the cross ply tyres that were available at the time. Modern cars that use radial tyres almost exclusively use a greater caster angle, somewhere from four to seven degrees in most cases.
Milling the holes in your upper A arm "cross rod" (can't think of the proper term) will allow you to position the upper A arm further to the rear and this will increase your caster angle. Check up on this from someone who has experience in this area.
I have a Borgeson in my '74 coupe and it drives like a new car. I can highly recommend it.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
The "returnability" of a steering system has a lot to do with the caster angle. Corvettes have an angle of about one degree, which was fine for the cross ply tyres that were available at the time. Modern cars that use radial tyres almost exclusively use a greater caster angle, somewhere from four to seven degrees in most cases.
Milling the holes in your upper A arm "cross rod" (can't think of the proper term) will allow you to position the upper A arm further to the rear and this will increase your caster angle. Check up on this from someone who has experience in this area.
I have a Borgeson in my '74 coupe and it drives like a new car. I can highly recommend it.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
Racer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 491
Likes: 5
From: Tampa Bay Area, U.S.A. (Zombie Nation)
When your turning radius is shortened enough such that you can't make a u-turn on a four lane road, let's say at a major intersection, it can be very dangerous. Most of us avoid curbing like the plague. The C3 was not designed to use a rack. The problem of reduced minimum turning radius with a rack has been noted. It leads me to believe the rack doesn't allow any contact with the stops. While it may be comparing apples with oranges my C3 can always easily make a u-turn at a four-lane intersection whereas my C5 requires me to stop a foot over to the right of center before initiating the turn.