0W40 vs 5W30 vs 0W30
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/gastest...st/default.htm
The Sequence IIIG test uses a 1996/1997 231 CID (3,800 cc) Series II General Motors V-6 fuel-injected gasoline engine.
Using unleaded gasoline, the engine runs a 10-minute initial oil-leveling procedure followed by a 15-minute slow ramp up to speed and load conditions. The engine then operates at 125 bhp, 3,600 rpm, and 150 °C oil temperature for 100 hours, interrupted at 20-hour intervals for oil level checks.
This is the testing protocol for backward compatibility.
This is a 125 HP engine. It is ramped up to speed over a 15 minute period. It never exceeds 3600 RPM and is run at a steady RPM for 100 hours. Cam specs are 182/190 Duration @ .050. Lift at the valve is .413/.408. Spring pressure is #79 closed and #229 open. If your engine meets these requirements an oil with 800 PPM ZDDP might be fine. The lobe/lifter loading increases drastically as RPM increases, The springs on a performance V8 would be much stronger. Aftermarket cams have faster ramps and higher lift. Solid Flat tappets are another story entirely. Combine stronger springs, more horsepower, higher lift, faster ramp and higher RPM you can see the loading at the lobe lifter interface is totally different than what the Sequence IIIG test is testing, I could easily see double the pressure the 3.8 tested sees. If you want to use modern oil in your engine go ahead. It is your engine. GM engineering designed the Sequence IIIG test. They have no interest in reducing wear in an engine design they have not used in 25 years so this test was done with the mildest cam, spring combo available and done at 3600 rpm redline.
The Sequence IIIG test uses a 1996/1997 231 CID (3,800 cc) Series II General Motors V-6 fuel-injected gasoline engine.
Using unleaded gasoline, the engine runs a 10-minute initial oil-leveling procedure followed by a 15-minute slow ramp up to speed and load conditions. The engine then operates at 125 bhp, 3,600 rpm, and 150 °C oil temperature for 100 hours, interrupted at 20-hour intervals for oil level checks.
This is the testing protocol for backward compatibility.
This is a 125 HP engine. It is ramped up to speed over a 15 minute period. It never exceeds 3600 RPM and is run at a steady RPM for 100 hours. Cam specs are 182/190 Duration @ .050. Lift at the valve is .413/.408. Spring pressure is #79 closed and #229 open. If your engine meets these requirements an oil with 800 PPM ZDDP might be fine. The lobe/lifter loading increases drastically as RPM increases, The springs on a performance V8 would be much stronger. Aftermarket cams have faster ramps and higher lift. Solid Flat tappets are another story entirely. Combine stronger springs, more horsepower, higher lift, faster ramp and higher RPM you can see the loading at the lobe lifter interface is totally different than what the Sequence IIIG test is testing, I could easily see double the pressure the 3.8 tested sees. If you want to use modern oil in your engine go ahead. It is your engine. GM engineering designed the Sequence IIIG test. They have no interest in reducing wear in an engine design they have not used in 25 years so this test was done with the mildest cam, spring combo available and done at 3600 rpm redline.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 511
Likes: 66
From: Timnath, CO
I talked with someone who is a formulator of heavy duty diesel engine oils for one of the leading lubricant additive companies. He is also into classic Corvettes. He told me that the Cummins valvetrain wear test for CJ-4 oils is very severe. He uses 10W-30 CJ-4 HDEO in his Corvettes with high lift cams.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,112
Likes: 28
From: Florida
63mako
I tend to agree with you somewhat, with the understanding that oil isn't the complete answer to preventing failure in a hipo engine.
I'm using the 0w40 in a tow vehicle, pretty much oem, with hard usage, but that really doesn't affect the valve train wear all that much. Being largely a GroupIV oil with 1000ppm of zddp, I don't think I'll have any problems, but if I do I'll post some pics.
Frankly, I'm counting on the syn base oil and viscosity as much as the zddp. Also very little washdown being FI.
I tend to stay out of these oil threads, simply because there is no simple answer, lubrication over a wide spectrum is complex and although beneficial, zddp is not the simple answer.
Personally, I feel that if building a serious hipo engine, one would be silly to go with flat tappets, therefore eliminating almost all of these oiling debates.
Although many are not, I'm sure you are familiar with the chevy cam problems of the 70s etc. There were huge amounts of shaft failures, to the extent that Chevy engines were getting a bad rep, oil having little to do with it. It was largely inferior material.
Here are a couple of excerpts,
From a Corvette Enthusiast article
From Comp Cams Article
Ironically, back in the early 70s, building flatrack engines, I would get camshafts and cam followers that were "stellite" coated and fine micro ground. These engines could run over 10k rpm easily using the old Kendal 20w50 with no cam failures at all. Same principle, not having too soft a material.
I'm convinced that if a lot of these failed cams and lifters were taken to a real metallurgist for analysis, it would be abundantly clear.
So basically, IMHO while always wanting to use what I think is the best oil, my prime concern would be the quality of the lifters and cams, that is IF I ever were to go HIPO flat tappet. Otherwise go roller, throw the flat tappets and 8 tracks away.
I tend to agree with you somewhat, with the understanding that oil isn't the complete answer to preventing failure in a hipo engine.
I'm using the 0w40 in a tow vehicle, pretty much oem, with hard usage, but that really doesn't affect the valve train wear all that much. Being largely a GroupIV oil with 1000ppm of zddp, I don't think I'll have any problems, but if I do I'll post some pics.
Frankly, I'm counting on the syn base oil and viscosity as much as the zddp. Also very little washdown being FI.
I tend to stay out of these oil threads, simply because there is no simple answer, lubrication over a wide spectrum is complex and although beneficial, zddp is not the simple answer.
Personally, I feel that if building a serious hipo engine, one would be silly to go with flat tappets, therefore eliminating almost all of these oiling debates.
Although many are not, I'm sure you are familiar with the chevy cam problems of the 70s etc. There were huge amounts of shaft failures, to the extent that Chevy engines were getting a bad rep, oil having little to do with it. It was largely inferior material.
Here are a couple of excerpts,
From a Corvette Enthusiast article
NASCAR Sprint Cup mandates flat tappets, and on tracks like Michigan, Pocono and California, over half the race is run above 9,000 rpm. But...they use steelbillet camshafts and diamond-like-carboncoated, tool steel lifters. The valvetrain, alone, in a Cup motor costs $15,000
Comp Cams just introduced a new surface treatment available on all their products, Pro Plasma Nitriding. The process treats a narrow band of 1.5 to 2 thousanths deep on the surface, thereby increasing its hardness by about 15 pts on the Rockwell scale. In a nutshell, it eliminates any type of break-in problems.
The origin of Pro Plasma Nitriding is interesting to say the least. "Years ago we'd sell a lot of the 2300 Pinto cams," says Scooter Brothers. "Everybody here used to laugh about them and call them boomerang cams because they always came back with flattened lobes. Then somebody got this wild hair to try nitriding them. So we sent them to a place in Michigan. Once we started nitriding them, all of a sudden we didn't have any more problems."
With the rise of the sport compact movement, the Pinto cams and similar designs found a new home, and with the increased business the guys at Comp decided to buy their own machine and Pro Plasma Nitriding was born. "It's the closest thing that I've ever seen that enables me to say it absolutely stops the problem. I hate to say 100 percent assurance that it won't go flat, but knock on wood I haven't seen any probelms."
The origin of Pro Plasma Nitriding is interesting to say the least. "Years ago we'd sell a lot of the 2300 Pinto cams," says Scooter Brothers. "Everybody here used to laugh about them and call them boomerang cams because they always came back with flattened lobes. Then somebody got this wild hair to try nitriding them. So we sent them to a place in Michigan. Once we started nitriding them, all of a sudden we didn't have any more problems."
With the rise of the sport compact movement, the Pinto cams and similar designs found a new home, and with the increased business the guys at Comp decided to buy their own machine and Pro Plasma Nitriding was born. "It's the closest thing that I've ever seen that enables me to say it absolutely stops the problem. I hate to say 100 percent assurance that it won't go flat, but knock on wood I haven't seen any probelms."
I'm convinced that if a lot of these failed cams and lifters were taken to a real metallurgist for analysis, it would be abundantly clear.
So basically, IMHO while always wanting to use what I think is the best oil, my prime concern would be the quality of the lifters and cams, that is IF I ever were to go HIPO flat tappet. Otherwise go roller, throw the flat tappets and 8 tracks away.
Racer
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 259
Likes: 3
From: Plano TX
I'm a little confused about how much mileage affects all this. I'd definitely like to run something like the 5W-30 Mobil 1 due to the cold starting issues.
I change my oil every 1000 to 1200 miles, because that's one year's worth of driving for me, as that's all the mileage I put on the car in a year. I have no issues changing the oil once a year regardless of mileage. The cost just isn't worth the concern.
So I'm wondering if all of this is that much of a concern to me, given the freshness of the oil when I change it.
I change my oil every 1000 to 1200 miles, because that's one year's worth of driving for me, as that's all the mileage I put on the car in a year. I have no issues changing the oil once a year regardless of mileage. The cost just isn't worth the concern.
So I'm wondering if all of this is that much of a concern to me, given the freshness of the oil when I change it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,739
Likes: 644
From: Lincoln, CA
I don't normally post in these but to Fly be sure to do some research on the 5W-30.
On LS1 boards we have seen a high failure rate of roller lifters eating the cam with engines using higher then stock valve springs and larger cams.
They guys that use the 0W-30 and 0W-40 don't seem to have this issues. I personally used the Catrol 0W-30 on my 2004 GTO using the springs below with zero issues.
Spring Pressure Closed: 135 lbs. @ 1.800"
Spring Pressure Open: 375 lbs. @ 1.150"
It's not just the flat tappet cams that are an issue.
On LS1 boards we have seen a high failure rate of roller lifters eating the cam with engines using higher then stock valve springs and larger cams.
They guys that use the 0W-30 and 0W-40 don't seem to have this issues. I personally used the Catrol 0W-30 on my 2004 GTO using the springs below with zero issues.
Spring Pressure Closed: 135 lbs. @ 1.800"
Spring Pressure Open: 375 lbs. @ 1.150"
It's not just the flat tappet cams that are an issue.
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 104
Likes: 68
From: Colorado
GM sent this to the dealers concerning C7 oils.
Viscosity Grade
Notice: DO NOT use other viscosity grade oils such as SAE 10W-30, 10W-40, or 20W-50.
Z51 Performance Package vehicles utilize the dry sump oil system. This vehicle will come with factory fill 5W-30 dexos1™ oil and an oil fill cap identifying that 5W-30 dexos1™ oil is recommended to top off the engine or for an oil change.
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle.
For cold temperature operation, where the temperature is colder than −20°F (−29°C), SAE 0W-30 may be used.
For track events or competitive driving, Mobil 1™ 15W-50 engine oil must be used. Refer to this General Motors website for dexos1™ information about the different licensed brands that are currently available: http://www.gmdexos.com
Powertrain / Drivetrain
Viscosity Grade
Notice: DO NOT use other viscosity grade oils such as SAE 10W-30, 10W-40, or 20W-50.
Z51 Performance Package vehicles utilize the dry sump oil system. This vehicle will come with factory fill 5W-30 dexos1™ oil and an oil fill cap identifying that 5W-30 dexos1™ oil is recommended to top off the engine or for an oil change.
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle.
For cold temperature operation, where the temperature is colder than −20°F (−29°C), SAE 0W-30 may be used.
For track events or competitive driving, Mobil 1™ 15W-50 engine oil must be used. Refer to this General Motors website for dexos1™ information about the different licensed brands that are currently available: http://www.gmdexos.com
Powertrain / Drivetrain
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
63mako
I tend to agree with you somewhat, with the understanding that oil isn't the complete answer to preventing failure in a hipo engine.
I'm using the 0w40 in a tow vehicle, pretty much oem, with hard usage, but that really doesn't affect the valve train wear all that much. Being largely a GroupIV oil with 1000ppm of zddp, I don't think I'll have any problems, but if I do I'll post some pics.
Frankly, I'm counting on the syn base oil and viscosity as much as the zddp. Also very little washdown being FI.
I tend to stay out of these oil threads, simply because there is no simple answer, lubrication over a wide spectrum is complex and although beneficial, zddp is not the simple answer.
Personally, I feel that if building a serious hipo engine, one would be silly to go with flat tappets, therefore eliminating almost all of these oiling debates.
Although many are not, I'm sure you are familiar with the chevy cam problems of the 70s etc. There were huge amounts of shaft failures, to the extent that Chevy engines were getting a bad rep, oil having little to do with it. It was largely inferior material.
Here are a couple of excerpts,
From a Corvette Enthusiast article
From Comp Cams Article
Ironically, back in the early 70s, building flatrack engines, I would get camshafts and cam followers that were "stellite" coated and fine micro ground. These engines could run over 10k rpm easily using the old Kendal 20w50 with no cam failures at all. Same principle, not having too soft a material.
I'm convinced that if a lot of these failed cams and lifters were taken to a real metallurgist for analysis, it would be abundantly clear.
So basically, IMHO while always wanting to use what I think is the best oil, my prime concern would be the quality of the lifters and cams, that is IF I ever were to go HIPO flat tappet. Otherwise go roller, throw the flat tappets and 8 tracks away.
I tend to agree with you somewhat, with the understanding that oil isn't the complete answer to preventing failure in a hipo engine.
I'm using the 0w40 in a tow vehicle, pretty much oem, with hard usage, but that really doesn't affect the valve train wear all that much. Being largely a GroupIV oil with 1000ppm of zddp, I don't think I'll have any problems, but if I do I'll post some pics.
Frankly, I'm counting on the syn base oil and viscosity as much as the zddp. Also very little washdown being FI.
I tend to stay out of these oil threads, simply because there is no simple answer, lubrication over a wide spectrum is complex and although beneficial, zddp is not the simple answer.
Personally, I feel that if building a serious hipo engine, one would be silly to go with flat tappets, therefore eliminating almost all of these oiling debates.
Although many are not, I'm sure you are familiar with the chevy cam problems of the 70s etc. There were huge amounts of shaft failures, to the extent that Chevy engines were getting a bad rep, oil having little to do with it. It was largely inferior material.
Here are a couple of excerpts,
From a Corvette Enthusiast article
From Comp Cams Article
Ironically, back in the early 70s, building flatrack engines, I would get camshafts and cam followers that were "stellite" coated and fine micro ground. These engines could run over 10k rpm easily using the old Kendal 20w50 with no cam failures at all. Same principle, not having too soft a material.
I'm convinced that if a lot of these failed cams and lifters were taken to a real metallurgist for analysis, it would be abundantly clear.
So basically, IMHO while always wanting to use what I think is the best oil, my prime concern would be the quality of the lifters and cams, that is IF I ever were to go HIPO flat tappet. Otherwise go roller, throw the flat tappets and 8 tracks away.
with your insights. The ONLY reason I post on these threads is that there are many here that come to the forum for technical advice on subjects the are not educated on. If they read a 25 paragraph, full page post from someone that claims to be an acclaimed lubrication specialist that states ZDDP levels over 800 are totally unnecessary for their High performance flat tappet engine and the only factors they really need to concern themselves with is his film strength test results combined with low viscosity they may very well take that as fact. In many applications such as a solid lifter cam or a fast ramp high lift hydraulic cam that will see high RPM use this advice is a recipe for disaster.I personally will never use a flat tappet cam again either.
The failures in the late 70's and early 80's were the result of poor quality control of the factory cams. GM resolved those issues by better Rockwell hardness testing and by Parkerizing (coating the factory cams with a phosphate coating). ZDDP deposits a similar film of phosphate that is worn off and redeposited continually only on high heat extreme pressure contact points.
Is ZDDP levels the only factor you need in determining the "right" oil for you? NO! But either is film strength. A smart Classic car owner would use the film strength testing results 540Rat posts and also use the ZDDP level information available from numerous sources including the sticky posted by Billa at the top of the page.
As for viscosity See the previous post.
For track events or competitive driving, Mobil 1™ 15W-50 engine oil must be used
This is a high viscosity, high ZDDP oil. There is a good reason GM recommends this for racing.
This totally contradicts 540Rat's theory.
Is he smarter than the engineers that developed the C7?
Why use a 1200 PPM ZDDP oil with a roller cam?
Why do you need a 15W-50 oil in a modern tight tolerance, roller cammed engine?
Because the driving conditions are different, nothing else changed.
Last edited by 63mako; Oct 12, 2013 at 03:16 AM.
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