Engine Identification???
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 109
Likes: 6
From: Hessen
Engine Identification???
Hey guys,
the German Fool is back again with another question for the real Corvette community...
My 1972 Stingray has an "incomplete" (VIN missing) engine stamping on the RH cylinder head bank... V1202CKW.
I know that this should be a 200 HP Manual Transmission Flint engine built in December 1972.
Has anybody an idea why this engine stamping is "incomplete"!?!?! The car is supposed to be "Matching Numbers"...
Thanks in advance!
Cheers...
René
the German Fool is back again with another question for the real Corvette community...
My 1972 Stingray has an "incomplete" (VIN missing) engine stamping on the RH cylinder head bank... V1202CKW.
I know that this should be a 200 HP Manual Transmission Flint engine built in December 1972.
Has anybody an idea why this engine stamping is "incomplete"!?!?! The car is supposed to be "Matching Numbers"...
Thanks in advance!
Cheers...
René
Last edited by René K.; Jan 14, 2014 at 06:28 PM. Reason: "VIN missing" added
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 848
Likes: 60
From: CA
Rene, the numbers/letters you posted is the engine suffix and assembly date code. V1202CKW is a 1972 350/200 4 speed assembled at the Flint, Michigan engine plant on December 2nd, 1971 and installed in a 1972 Corvette.
The partial VIN "should" be stamped right next to it on the pad and will be 12Sxxxxxx (where xxxxxx is the last 6 digits of your VIN). Can you post a picture of the pad? Sometimes the stamp is very light and hard to make out.
Ed
The partial VIN "should" be stamped right next to it on the pad and will be 12Sxxxxxx (where xxxxxx is the last 6 digits of your VIN). Can you post a picture of the pad? Sometimes the stamp is very light and hard to make out.
Ed
Last edited by restoman1; Jan 14, 2014 at 06:52 PM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 109
Likes: 6
From: Hessen
Hi guys,
thanks for your first responses. Unfortunately I did not have a picture available yesterday... but... here it is!
There is no Serial-/VIN number visible... and the Engine code stamping is pretty "randomly" positioned.
However... all other "indications" such as block casting number and cylinder head numbers are correct.
The question is... why is the Serial-/VIN number missing...
Cheers...
René
thanks for your first responses. Unfortunately I did not have a picture available yesterday... but... here it is!
There is no Serial-/VIN number visible... and the Engine code stamping is pretty "randomly" positioned.
However... all other "indications" such as block casting number and cylinder head numbers are correct.
The question is... why is the Serial-/VIN number missing...
Cheers...
René
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 848
Likes: 60
From: CA
That's not a factory stamp, so more than likely the block was decked and someone restamped the suffix code. Not sure why they didn't also stamp the partial VIN, but take some paint remover (NOT sandpaper) and remove the paint from the pad and see what you can find.
Ed
Ed
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 109
Likes: 6
From: Hessen
Yes, that is what I thought as well.
Typically the stamping should be in a straight line incl. the VIN.
However, I know from a previous owner (American who brought the car from Arizona to Germany in 1991) of the car that the engine was massively overheated one time. I do not know what repair was done... but perhaps an engine overhaul took place!?!
At least the engine is running without any mechanical noise and there is no oil consumption at all. Also the fuel consumption is good.
So I would not think of any "still present" severe engine damage!?!
Cheers...
René
Typically the stamping should be in a straight line incl. the VIN.
However, I know from a previous owner (American who brought the car from Arizona to Germany in 1991) of the car that the engine was massively overheated one time. I do not know what repair was done... but perhaps an engine overhaul took place!?!
At least the engine is running without any mechanical noise and there is no oil consumption at all. Also the fuel consumption is good.
So I would not think of any "still present" severe engine damage!?!
Cheers...
René
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 31,110
Likes: 4,173
From: Westminster Maryland
Hi Rene"
Here's a picture of a more typical assembly stamp and serial derivative stamp. This should give you an idea where to look for traces of your missing serial derivative stamp. You'll notice the location of your current assembly stamp isn't in the typical location. It's where the assembly stamp on a bb engine would have been.
As Ed said, be VERY gentile in removing the paint so that nothing that might still be there is lost.
The routine of decking blocks certainly has disappointed many owners trying to determine if the block in their car is the one it left St.Louis with.
Have you checked to see if other parts that were on the block are still there? Things like the carb, intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, fuel and water pumps can be traced to an appropriate build date for your car and would certainly help easy your dismay.
I hope you find lot's of appropriate parts !
Regards,
Alan
Here's a picture of a more typical assembly stamp and serial derivative stamp. This should give you an idea where to look for traces of your missing serial derivative stamp. You'll notice the location of your current assembly stamp isn't in the typical location. It's where the assembly stamp on a bb engine would have been.
As Ed said, be VERY gentile in removing the paint so that nothing that might still be there is lost.
The routine of decking blocks certainly has disappointed many owners trying to determine if the block in their car is the one it left St.Louis with.
Have you checked to see if other parts that were on the block are still there? Things like the carb, intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, fuel and water pumps can be traced to an appropriate build date for your car and would certainly help easy your dismay.
I hope you find lot's of appropriate parts !
Regards,
Alan
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Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 109
Likes: 6
From: Hessen
Well,
again thanks so much for your detailed responses.
As far as I can see all the other components such as the transmission and differential are the original ones.
I would have to check other parts of the engine (carb, manifolds, etc.) to see if the date codes match the vehicle timing.
The bank where the stamping is located shows quite obvious machining marks... compared to the pictures I have seen from other vehicles. So, there is a chance, that the engine was taken out of the car for overhauling... the engine type was stamped at a repairshop but due to the lack of the VIN at the repair shop the VIN stamping might have been "forgotten"!?!
I will check other details soon to see if I can find out more details!
Cheers...
René
again thanks so much for your detailed responses.
As far as I can see all the other components such as the transmission and differential are the original ones.
I would have to check other parts of the engine (carb, manifolds, etc.) to see if the date codes match the vehicle timing.
The bank where the stamping is located shows quite obvious machining marks... compared to the pictures I have seen from other vehicles. So, there is a chance, that the engine was taken out of the car for overhauling... the engine type was stamped at a repairshop but due to the lack of the VIN at the repair shop the VIN stamping might have been "forgotten"!?!
I will check other details soon to see if I can find out more details!
Cheers...
René
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
The engine in your car may very well be the original engine, but if the partial VIN has been obliterated, say, by the block having been decked, then there is no way to "prove" that it is the original engine. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your car is not "numbers matching", and whoever told you it was, did you a dis-service.
Forum members, take this as a lesson: Don't take the seller's word on a "numbers matching" car. Check to make sure the numbers do, in fact, match. If they don't, you've got a bargaining chip!
Don't feel bad, Rene, just chalk it up to experience. The whole "numbers matching" thing is over-rated, anyway, the only reason to be aware of it is to not get caught paying the premium that sellers want for "numbers matching" cars if you don't have to. A nice 'vette with a non-original engine is still a nice 'vette!
Scott
Forum members, take this as a lesson: Don't take the seller's word on a "numbers matching" car. Check to make sure the numbers do, in fact, match. If they don't, you've got a bargaining chip!
Don't feel bad, Rene, just chalk it up to experience. The whole "numbers matching" thing is over-rated, anyway, the only reason to be aware of it is to not get caught paying the premium that sellers want for "numbers matching" cars if you don't have to. A nice 'vette with a non-original engine is still a nice 'vette!
Scott
Last edited by scottyp99; Jan 15, 2014 at 05:35 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 848
Likes: 60
From: CA
You'll never know for sure if it's the original engine, but you CAN narrow it down a bit. What's the casting number and date code of the block and what's the VIN of your car? If the casting number is correct and the date is close to your car's build date, it "could" still be the original engine.
Ed
Ed
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 109
Likes: 6
From: Hessen
Hey guys,
thanks so much for all you detailed feedback.
In fact, all the details I know about the car lead to the assumption that it should still be the original engine... but was decked due to an overheating-event almost 20 years ago. All the cast numbers and dates somehow "match" with the vehicle build date.
If I ever find a "confirmation" that prooves a matching number engine I will let you know!
Again... thanks for all your help!
Cheers...
René
P. S.: Also, thanks for all the "nice words"... but, I do not feel bad... I just wanted to investigate more of the history of my car. Finally... whenever I visit a classic car meeting... and if I had unlimited amount of money to buy one of the cars I see... I would always buy my Corvette again. So, I am a very happy man!!!
thanks so much for all you detailed feedback.
In fact, all the details I know about the car lead to the assumption that it should still be the original engine... but was decked due to an overheating-event almost 20 years ago. All the cast numbers and dates somehow "match" with the vehicle build date.
If I ever find a "confirmation" that prooves a matching number engine I will let you know!
Again... thanks for all your help!
Cheers...
René
P. S.: Also, thanks for all the "nice words"... but, I do not feel bad... I just wanted to investigate more of the history of my car. Finally... whenever I visit a classic car meeting... and if I had unlimited amount of money to buy one of the cars I see... I would always buy my Corvette again. So, I am a very happy man!!!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 893
Likes: 7
From: Orange Park Florida
Numbers matching is tough!! Engines re-decked, heads swapped, many things can be done to make a car "numbers" matching. My engine has no stamping - re-decked? swapped? who knows.
An acquaintance just purchased an advertised 1969, SS396 full body for restoration and is beginning to see that it is a junk yard assembled car. No proof of authenticity - his mistake!!! Vin tag is damaged, paint codes are incorrect, and emblems and other identifying items are missing. No way to prove what the car is - engine mounts have been readjusted and it looks like an original 6 cylinder, automatic setup.
Without a build sheet it is anyone's guess .
Good luck.
An acquaintance just purchased an advertised 1969, SS396 full body for restoration and is beginning to see that it is a junk yard assembled car. No proof of authenticity - his mistake!!! Vin tag is damaged, paint codes are incorrect, and emblems and other identifying items are missing. No way to prove what the car is - engine mounts have been readjusted and it looks like an original 6 cylinder, automatic setup.
Without a build sheet it is anyone's guess .
Good luck.