77 Starter dies when hot
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 828
Likes: 2
77 Starter dies when hot
I have done what everyone told me to do. I bought from (un named) one of our vendors a new heavy duty Delco starter and an aluminum sandwich heat shield that I mounted to the starter. I had my car running in my yard about 45 minutes and doing a spring warm up, while I was working on another car. The temp gauge was at about 180 after that.
I pulled it into it's garage and it wouldn't start (starter motor acted like it was dead) for over an hour till it cooled down and then it cranked very slowly but restarted. The next day it cranked like a new starter should. Did I mention that I bought a new GM correct number battery also?
I am at wits end as I do not want to drive it and get stuck for 2 hours till the starter cools down. With what I did, this should not be happening.
Question, how close is your exhaust from your starter? Maybe my exhaust is too close, I really am lost here and I can either have a money pit on this, get help with the correct solution or sell it.
I would rather keep it and use it without it in my head that if I pull in for gas on a drive I won't get stuck. I might try to wrap the starter.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Jack
1977 L-82
I pulled it into it's garage and it wouldn't start (starter motor acted like it was dead) for over an hour till it cooled down and then it cranked very slowly but restarted. The next day it cranked like a new starter should. Did I mention that I bought a new GM correct number battery also?
I am at wits end as I do not want to drive it and get stuck for 2 hours till the starter cools down. With what I did, this should not be happening.
Question, how close is your exhaust from your starter? Maybe my exhaust is too close, I really am lost here and I can either have a money pit on this, get help with the correct solution or sell it.
I would rather keep it and use it without it in my head that if I pull in for gas on a drive I won't get stuck. I might try to wrap the starter.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Jack
1977 L-82
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,968
Likes: 44
From: East TN
I have done what everyone told me to do. I bought from (un named) one of our vendors a new heavy duty Delco starter and an aluminum sandwich heat shield that I mounted to the starter. I had my car running in my yard about 45 minutes and doing a spring warm up, while I was working on another car. The temp gauge was at about 180 after that.
I pulled it into it's garage and it wouldn't start (starter motor acted like it was dead) for over an hour till it cooled down and then it cranked very slowly but restarted. The next day it cranked like a new starter should. Did I mention that I bought a new GM correct number battery also?
I am at wits end as I do not want to drive it and get stuck for 2 hours till the starter cools down. With what I did, this should not be happening.
Question, how close is your exhaust from your starter? Maybe my exhaust is too close, I really am lost here and I can either have a money pit on this, get help with the correct solution or sell it.
I would rather keep it and use it without it in my head that if I pull in for gas on a drive I won't get stuck. I might try to wrap the starter.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Jack
1977 L-82
I pulled it into it's garage and it wouldn't start (starter motor acted like it was dead) for over an hour till it cooled down and then it cranked very slowly but restarted. The next day it cranked like a new starter should. Did I mention that I bought a new GM correct number battery also?
I am at wits end as I do not want to drive it and get stuck for 2 hours till the starter cools down. With what I did, this should not be happening.
Question, how close is your exhaust from your starter? Maybe my exhaust is too close, I really am lost here and I can either have a money pit on this, get help with the correct solution or sell it.
I would rather keep it and use it without it in my head that if I pull in for gas on a drive I won't get stuck. I might try to wrap the starter.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Jack
1977 L-82
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 49
From: Bridgewater nj
I would replace the +/- cables a sand the contact surfaces before installing. Heat makes electrical flow difficult. Any bad connections will get worse when hot. A starter wrap may be needed if running headers?
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,118
From: Crossville TN
Do you have a good chassis-to-engine ground line at the right-side motor mount area? If not, that is likely your problem. If you have a line there, but it is really old and not that good looking, the wiring may be failing inside and not conducting well when hot.
There is no "good" reason for the starter to not function when it is hot. As long as the insulation on the motor windings doesn't melt, it will work...if you get voltage/current thru it (requires good power source IN and ground line OUT).
There is no "good" reason for the starter to not function when it is hot. As long as the insulation on the motor windings doesn't melt, it will work...if you get voltage/current thru it (requires good power source IN and ground line OUT).
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 828
Likes: 2
All ground, battery and starter area cables were replaced, cleaned, taken apart and continuity checked but still overheating. There is nothing that should cause this. But something is. I was told that wrapping the starter can damage it
Last edited by xkeots; Apr 3, 2014 at 04:41 PM.
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
The headers on that motor (a 409) get really close; so after wrapping the mini-starter, I chalked it up to living with it. (Did a myriad of other things, too, like increased cable size. Returned the starter to a local speed shop, and on and on....)
I take the car in for an alignment; and a friend owns the shop. I get there after he calls me, and he says... "I killed your car..." No lights, no power, nothing. 14v at the battery.
The ground cable looked perfect on both ends; was damaged internally. we wiggled the cable? Everything lit. Hot, the cable built resistance, wouldn't fire the motor. Cold? She was good enough to turn the motor.
Three tows home, and a half dozen days on my back bench pressing starters and pulling headers later, it was a negative cable. My advice? Run a supplemental from the chassis, somewhere (If she's not a show car.) It can't hurt anything. It can only help.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
Had the same issue with my 77 years back,
added a ground cable from the starter to the motor mount,
no more issues,
Check voltage drop from the positive cable going to the starter to the ground to the block then to the frame and see if the voltage during starting while hot is different. If the voltage is different between the two locations then you have a local ground issue. If the voltage is low at both locations then check the ground at the rear were the battery cable attaches to the frame.
To verify cable condition check for voltage drop at the battery during cranking.
The voltage with a good battery should not drop below 10 volts.
Neal
added a ground cable from the starter to the motor mount,
no more issues,
Check voltage drop from the positive cable going to the starter to the ground to the block then to the frame and see if the voltage during starting while hot is different. If the voltage is different between the two locations then you have a local ground issue. If the voltage is low at both locations then check the ground at the rear were the battery cable attaches to the frame.
To verify cable condition check for voltage drop at the battery during cranking.
The voltage with a good battery should not drop below 10 volts.
Neal
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Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
I added the cable from the starter mounting bolt to the motor mount on the frame,
Neal
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 3
From: Greensboro NC
Its really frustrating I know.
Just solved the same problem two days ago. 3 Starters lots of swearing and 2 tows.
Follow the wires up from the starter to the first connector (by the blower relay) take it apart and clean it. Problem solved and my windows go up and down faster now too. Anyone need two good starters? BTW no wrap, no shield, and headers.
PS I did clean all the connectors to the starter and the ground wire (Black) which goes to the bellhousing.
Just solved the same problem two days ago. 3 Starters lots of swearing and 2 tows.
Follow the wires up from the starter to the first connector (by the blower relay) take it apart and clean it. Problem solved and my windows go up and down faster now too. Anyone need two good starters? BTW no wrap, no shield, and headers.
PS I did clean all the connectors to the starter and the ground wire (Black) which goes to the bellhousing.
Last edited by micks69; Apr 4, 2014 at 09:57 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
Its really frustrating I know.
Just solved the same problem two days ago. 3 Starters lots of swearing and 2 tows.
Follow the wires up from the starter to the first connector (by the blower relay) take it apart and clean it. Problem solved and my windows go up and down faster now too. Anyone need two good starters? BTW no wrap, no shield, and headers.
PS I did clean all the connectors to the starter and the ground wire (Black) which goes to the bellhousing.
Just solved the same problem two days ago. 3 Starters lots of swearing and 2 tows.
Follow the wires up from the starter to the first connector (by the blower relay) take it apart and clean it. Problem solved and my windows go up and down faster now too. Anyone need two good starters? BTW no wrap, no shield, and headers.
PS I did clean all the connectors to the starter and the ground wire (Black) which goes to the bellhousing.
Neal
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 273
From: Dunedin NZ.
On my 70 it was the key switch contact block, start when cold but often not when hot even though I could see the starter was taking current 40 A+ on the ammeter. Easy check is to jumper the starter solenoid with a bump start button when you are having the start problem (you are bypassing the key switch), a screwdriver will work if you are brave:-) That's how I got home when it did it last time! If it starts when jumpered, the problem is not your starter. The contact block is adjustable on the steering column and this may be all you need but be advised it is very hard to get to without dropping the column down.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 828
Likes: 2
I saw at a car show a 77 with a starter set up like a 60's Ford. it had the wheel well mounted solenoid and I couldn't see the starter. He said that he bought it like that. I can't find a Ford style starter that mounts to a Chevy block. If I get a dry day this weekend I will check the voltage, ground and connector by the blower.
Thanks
Jack
Thanks
Jack
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
I saw at a car show a 77 with a starter set up like a 60's Ford. it had the wheel well mounted solenoid and I couldn't see the starter. He said that he bought it like that. I can't find a Ford style starter that mounts to a Chevy block. If I get a dry day this weekend I will check the voltage, ground and connector by the blower.
Thanks
Jack
Thanks
Jack
Do a search and many hits will come up
It places a Ford starter solenoid in conjunction with the GM starter
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te..._no_start_fix/
Neal
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 828
Likes: 2
Replaced cables, New GM starter and a DELCO battery. Still won't start when hot, I must wait till area on motor & exhaust cools off. Has anyone here used the high torque mini starters?
Thanks
Jack
77 L-82
Thanks
Jack
77 L-82
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 828
Likes: 2
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 828
Likes: 2
Did all of that when I got the car. I had a nasty partial vacuum hoses and engine wires disconnect and re connect. The car on day one wouldn't run. There are more grounds to motor than grass in a watered park. Both battery wires were replaced and all the rest of the wires were re routed as factory schematic says. ( I did a lot of electronics repair going thru college and reading schematics is a must). At car shows and local club meets lots of guys with L-82 had hot starter problems but none of them worked on their own cars. I owned (back in the day) brand new 69, 73, 76 &77 (my 76 was stolen). Never had this problem when new. I have been building cars since 1965 and this has me stumped. It got better with an OEM starter and a Delco battery. But I still have to let it cool down 15-20 min.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,050
Likes: 205
From: Lewes Delaware
Had the same problem on my 73 with the stock starter and ignition system. Installed a heavy duty solenoid. But what did the trick was I reversed the wires to the R and S terminals. They were incorrectly installed when the stater was replaced during an earlier rebuild project.
No problems since then.
Fran
No problems since then.
Fran
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,118
From: Crossville TN
Components involved with START process are: ignition switch, neutral start switch, starter solenoid (much more likely to have problems than a 'real' GM starter); power wires (including the fusible-links at the solenoid); ground wires and front starter bracket.
If the starter bracket [and/or other power/ground feed components/terminals/wires] are painted, area at connection points needs to be sanded and cleaned off or current can be 'iffy'. Fusible-link wires may appear OK visually...but they could be almost all carbon on the inside. Their insulation is fire-proof, so when they burn up, you may not notice it; must check with ohmmeter.
If the starter bracket [and/or other power/ground feed components/terminals/wires] are painted, area at connection points needs to be sanded and cleaned off or current can be 'iffy'. Fusible-link wires may appear OK visually...but they could be almost all carbon on the inside. Their insulation is fire-proof, so when they burn up, you may not notice it; must check with ohmmeter.