Wheel alignment depression set in today.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 273
From: Dunedin NZ.
Wheel alignment depression set in today.
Dropped vette off for its alignment and get the bad news that the LH side wont come into spec with correct positive castor because the wheel is too far forward and the tire will rub on the guard. I guess this means a bent frame? What should my next move be? Take it to a chassis shop for inspection, is it possible to pull a frame into spec without a body off strip down? Lifting the body is beyond my capabilities and resources, I've sunk a fair few $$ into this car and a heap of hours only to find this car is unlikely to ever drive well without major surgery?
I never picked up this issue before because the car came with std wheels and 60 series tires that gave sufficient clearance in front but now I have fitted a wheel and tire combo close to the original diameter I knew the minute I looked back at the car at the shop that things were not right (its the first time I have been able to look at the car from a distance since I parked it up to fit new front springs and wheels). A jail pass would be great about now but I'm thinking the car will be going into the garage and covered up, time to walk away, I could never foster it onto someone else like it is.
I never picked up this issue before because the car came with std wheels and 60 series tires that gave sufficient clearance in front but now I have fitted a wheel and tire combo close to the original diameter I knew the minute I looked back at the car at the shop that things were not right (its the first time I have been able to look at the car from a distance since I parked it up to fit new front springs and wheels). A jail pass would be great about now but I'm thinking the car will be going into the garage and covered up, time to walk away, I could never foster it onto someone else like it is.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 385
Likes: 3
From: Leesburg VA
It can't hurt to take it to a chassis shop to see what they have to say. Explore all your options before you resign yourself to covering it up and walking away. Frames are available, so that may be a pricey and/or time-consuming option as well. Don't make any rash decisions, take your time and explore alternatives, you are under no pressure to get it on the road tomorrow.
John
John
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 273
From: Dunedin NZ.
You are right of course, once I get over the depression I will take it to a frame shop for inspection. A second hand frame here would run up to $3,000 and I don't think I'm up to doing a frame swap, I've been doing some reading and some have straightened these frames without lifting the body so maybe there's hope.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 15
From: Pell City AL
I had a similar issue after a driving incident and the alignment shop said the frame was bent. Turned out it was just the lower control arm that was bent. Hopefully you find out something similar.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,139
Likes: 82
You didn't say how far out the settings where, there may be some worn parts that when replaced put it back in specs.
Good advice to go slow, one part at a time. If you don't notice a bent or worn part I would at least want to know the frame specs....it shouldn't cost too much to have it put on a frame machine.
I owned a 73 that the PO drove off of a 15 foot ravine....he rewelded some parts up front and it drove really well!
Good luck, Kevin
Good advice to go slow, one part at a time. If you don't notice a bent or worn part I would at least want to know the frame specs....it shouldn't cost too much to have it put on a frame machine.
I owned a 73 that the PO drove off of a 15 foot ravine....he rewelded some parts up front and it drove really well!
Good luck, Kevin
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
I've never been to New Zealand, but I'm sure they have idiots there, just like every other place in the world I've ever been. You never know, you may have just dealt with one at the alignment shop. Get a second opinion before you do anything drastic. And keep a stiff upper lip!
Scott
Scott
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,503
Likes: 33
From: McGrady NC
St. Jude Donor '15-'16
Check the lower control arm frame mounts. They can twist and tear under the right conditions and really mess up your alignment. Not a hard fix for an experienced welder. I had to do it to mine. GM actually suggested some gusseting to improve the lower mount strength.
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Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,458
Likes: 330
From: Indy Indiana
maybe it is just a bent control arm, or have it re-bent so the wheel will be able to get into alignment.
also get another opinion...
toe in and camber are more important than castor, perhaps live with it vs. getting frustrated and parking the car. could even be a fender not fitted correctly.
just because it won't do 1 G on the road course is no reason to park it and refuse to foster it onto someone else. refusing to sell a non perfect car is admirable, but impractical.. no car is perfect.
also get another opinion...
toe in and camber are more important than castor, perhaps live with it vs. getting frustrated and parking the car. could even be a fender not fitted correctly.
just because it won't do 1 G on the road course is no reason to park it and refuse to foster it onto someone else. refusing to sell a non perfect car is admirable, but impractical.. no car is perfect.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 234
Likes: 3
From: Johnston Rhode Island
A frame can be pulled while the body is on. I would pull the front clip if the issue is in the front. You don't want to start straining fiberglass. Before going that route check the control arms first. Make sure nobody put spacers in to make it sit too far one way or another. Make sure the arms are true. Make sure the tabs they mount to on the frame are not bent. Make sure the bushings are well seated in the arms and not sticking out too far to cause a mis alignment.
If you cannot find any issue take it somewhere to get an opinion. Once you have an opinion let us know what they said. Don't commit to anything without having it all planned out.
If you cannot find any issue take it somewhere to get an opinion. Once you have an opinion let us know what they said. Don't commit to anything without having it all planned out.
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,573
Likes: 7,017
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
Like everyone said......."Relax!"
Got pics of both wheels/fenders for us to compare?
What is the clearance measurement between the fender lip and the tire?
What is the clearance measurement between the other fender lip and the OTHER TIRE?
What is the measurement from the door gap to the center of the wheel spindle:
on the driver's side?
on the passenger's side?
Got pics of both wheels/fenders for us to compare?
What is the clearance measurement between the fender lip and the tire?
What is the clearance measurement between the other fender lip and the OTHER TIRE?
What is the measurement from the door gap to the center of the wheel spindle:
on the driver's side?
on the passenger's side?
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,294
Likes: 2,753
From: Charlotte NC
FROM EXPERIENCE:
I do not use the body as a 'measuring' gauge in any way when it comes to how the wheel and tire fit and look.
I have repaired so many Corvettes that were repaired when the frame and suspension were off severely...but yet the wheel looks fine...because BOZO modified parts/body panels...to 'trick' the eye and get things to work without hitting.
VERIFY that your body has not been pushed back by looking in the index holes in your door sill area on BOTH SIDES.
I would check the wheel base with a gauge and also the position of the lower ball joints as a start.
DUB
I do not use the body as a 'measuring' gauge in any way when it comes to how the wheel and tire fit and look.
I have repaired so many Corvettes that were repaired when the frame and suspension were off severely...but yet the wheel looks fine...because BOZO modified parts/body panels...to 'trick' the eye and get things to work without hitting.
VERIFY that your body has not been pushed back by looking in the index holes in your door sill area on BOTH SIDES.
I would check the wheel base with a gauge and also the position of the lower ball joints as a start.
DUB
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,111
Likes: 32
From: Damascus MD
Frame Bent
Try and find and old timer who is familiar with the full box frames versus all this new uni-body construction.
I had a similar situation on my 68 GTO convertible. I found a local person in Maryland who was very experienced in straightening these frames from back in the day.
Avoid the youngsters who only know uni-body type stuff.
The guy I found pulled the frame on the GTO and when I say is was hammered it was hammered. When he finished the frame was exactly as it should be dimensionally.
Pulling the frames on these cars was not all that uncommon when they were new. It can be done. No need to panic.
Bill
I had a similar situation on my 68 GTO convertible. I found a local person in Maryland who was very experienced in straightening these frames from back in the day.
Avoid the youngsters who only know uni-body type stuff.
The guy I found pulled the frame on the GTO and when I say is was hammered it was hammered. When he finished the frame was exactly as it should be dimensionally.
Pulling the frames on these cars was not all that uncommon when they were new. It can be done. No need to panic.
Bill
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 273
From: Dunedin NZ.
Drove it home today it seems to handle quite well but as soon as you turn close to full lock on the LH side burp goes the tyre. The tech said he even tried 2 deg neg caster as an experiment to see whether the tyre would clear the guard but no luck.
Front left Front right
Camber 0 deg 37 0 deg 16
Caster 2 deg 11 2 deg 00
Toe 1.6mm 1.3mm
The front clip has been replaced on this car so either it doesn't sit correctly or there is an issue with the frame or A arms. I will put up some pics when I can get the car outside again in daylight. I have found a panel shop with measuring equipment who came recommended by a local hot rod enthusiast. i would like to sort this rather than give up my brand new wheels and tires
Front left Front right
Camber 0 deg 37 0 deg 16
Caster 2 deg 11 2 deg 00
Toe 1.6mm 1.3mm
The front clip has been replaced on this car so either it doesn't sit correctly or there is an issue with the frame or A arms. I will put up some pics when I can get the car outside again in daylight. I have found a panel shop with measuring equipment who came recommended by a local hot rod enthusiast. i would like to sort this rather than give up my brand new wheels and tires
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,930
Likes: 842
From: melbourne florida
2023 C3 of the Year Finalist - Modified
as long as the frame isn't rotted out its unlikely you'd need to swap frames. 
it may be something simple like a bent control arm. good luck.
it may be something simple like a bent control arm. good luck.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 11,231
Likes: 2,061
From: Grapevine Tx
2018 C3 of Year Finalist
2016 C3 of the Year Finalist
Drove it home today it seems to handle quite well but as soon as you turn close to full lock on the LH side burp goes the tyre. The tech said he even tried 2 deg neg caster as an experiment to see whether the tyre would clear the guard but no luck.
Front left Front right
Camber 0 deg 37 0 deg 16
Caster 2 deg 11 2 deg 00
Toe 1.6mm 1.3mm
The front clip has been replaced on this car so either it doesn't sit correctly or there is an issue with the frame or A arms. I will put up some pics when I can get the car outside again in daylight. I have found a panel shop with measuring equipment who came recommended by a local hot rod enthusiast. i would like to sort this rather than give up my brand new wheels and tires
Front left Front right
Camber 0 deg 37 0 deg 16
Caster 2 deg 11 2 deg 00
Toe 1.6mm 1.3mm
The front clip has been replaced on this car so either it doesn't sit correctly or there is an issue with the frame or A arms. I will put up some pics when I can get the car outside again in daylight. I have found a panel shop with measuring equipment who came recommended by a local hot rod enthusiast. i would like to sort this rather than give up my brand new wheels and tires
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,294
Likes: 2,753
From: Charlotte NC
Haggisbash,
Have you looked to see if your index/alignment holes in your door sill area on each side line up with the holes in the frame to make sure the body is CORRECT on the frame?????
Also...there has to be someone...or hopefully there is someone...who can pull your frame. If they do pull it they should not use chains around your frame due to making bad dents from the chain links. Any body who knows body work can pick those out dents INSTANTLY!!! Using a woven nylon strap...or welding steel plates to the frame and clamping onto them...then remove the plates and grind where the welds were. If done correctly....it is virtually undetectable.
Also...how many shims do you have NOW in your upper control arm mounting points???
DUB
Have you looked to see if your index/alignment holes in your door sill area on each side line up with the holes in the frame to make sure the body is CORRECT on the frame?????
Also...there has to be someone...or hopefully there is someone...who can pull your frame. If they do pull it they should not use chains around your frame due to making bad dents from the chain links. Any body who knows body work can pick those out dents INSTANTLY!!! Using a woven nylon strap...or welding steel plates to the frame and clamping onto them...then remove the plates and grind where the welds were. If done correctly....it is virtually undetectable.
Also...how many shims do you have NOW in your upper control arm mounting points???
DUB
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 273
From: Dunedin NZ.
Hi Dub, can you tell me more about these index holes, I see a mention in the AIM but not sure what I should be doing to verify the alignment there.
I never looked under the hood when I got it home, so not sure how many shims but from what the tech was saying I think there will be more than there really should be, will have to have a look tonight.
I'm going to call into the body shop today to ask if they can check a vette chassis.
I never looked under the hood when I got it home, so not sure how many shims but from what the tech was saying I think there will be more than there really should be, will have to have a look tonight.
I'm going to call into the body shop today to ask if they can check a vette chassis.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,294
Likes: 2,753
From: Charlotte NC
Hi Dub, can you tell me more about these index holes, I see a mention in the AIM but not sure what I should be doing to verify the alignment there.
I never looked under the hood when I got it home, so not sure how many shims but from what the tech was saying I think there will be more than there really should be, will have to have a look tonight.
I'm going to call into the body shop today to ask if they can check a vette chassis.
I never looked under the hood when I got it home, so not sure how many shims but from what the tech was saying I think there will be more than there really should be, will have to have a look tonight.
I'm going to call into the body shop today to ask if they can check a vette chassis.
ON the driver side...there will be a hole about 1/2" in diameter and may actually have an orange plug in it. REMOVE the plug if it is still there and then look STRAIGHT DOWN through the hole. There is a hole going all the way through eh frame and you can see the ground. The hole in your body...needs to line up with the hole in the frame.
On the passenger side. It is the same EXCEPT that the index hole and plug is at the back of the door sill. Look at it. IF these two holes are correct....that is telling me that the body ash NOT shifted or moved on the frame....because it CAN.
But still does not mean that the front frame section is not out of whack. Because the frame has an 'S' bend in it behind you gear box on both sides. And when a Corvette is hit in the front...it is possible that the 'S' will collapse a little and set eh front wheel to the rear a bit.
DUB