Accident Damage - HELP!
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 41
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From: MA
Accident Damage - HELP!
Hi folks,
I have a '74 with factory PS that was hit on the front-most portion of the passenger fender over the summer. The soccer-mom piloted Honda Pilot (weighing in at a Hummer-esque 4550 lbs.) also damaged the wheel and center link. After two months in a shop that specializes in Corvettes, the obviously busted stuff was taken care of, and the car looks great. Sadly, it *only* looks great.
The frame was checked for straightness, but the car was apparently never test-driven because the front wheels will not stay in alignment. I set the toe to zero, but it goes out by over 15 degrees once it hits the road. The shop owner was told of this issue back in August, but here I am with a Corvette I can't drive.
I don't understand what could still be broken. The tie rods/sleeves are solid, ball joints are OK, bearings are good, there's very little runout in the disc, and I can't move the control arms laterally (by hand, anyway). What gives????
I wanna just do it my damn self because I want it done right...
- Jonathan in MA
I have a '74 with factory PS that was hit on the front-most portion of the passenger fender over the summer. The soccer-mom piloted Honda Pilot (weighing in at a Hummer-esque 4550 lbs.) also damaged the wheel and center link. After two months in a shop that specializes in Corvettes, the obviously busted stuff was taken care of, and the car looks great. Sadly, it *only* looks great.
The frame was checked for straightness, but the car was apparently never test-driven because the front wheels will not stay in alignment. I set the toe to zero, but it goes out by over 15 degrees once it hits the road. The shop owner was told of this issue back in August, but here I am with a Corvette I can't drive.
I don't understand what could still be broken. The tie rods/sleeves are solid, ball joints are OK, bearings are good, there's very little runout in the disc, and I can't move the control arms laterally (by hand, anyway). What gives????
I wanna just do it my damn self because I want it done right...
- Jonathan in MA
Last edited by VanHanlon; Oct 29, 2014 at 10:07 PM.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 406
Likes: 46
From: Lebanon OH
When you checked the ball joints, did you disconnect them from the spindle and see if maybe the shaft was bent where it meets the ball? I'm thinking it's possible that if that's the case, then when you align the wheel the ball rotates in the housing and the alignment looks good, but then when you drive it moves. You could probably check that by aligning the front, starting the car, rotating the steering wheel through its full travel couple times, and rechecking the alignment. Just a thought.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 41
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From: MA
It looks like you're right, MajD. The top ball joint is visibly bent. I'll replace it and then check the bottom one and hopefully be back on the road. Thanks a whole lot, man. I think you nailed it.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 441
From: Denver CO
I'd be pissed!That Corvette shop shouldn't have missed a bum ball joint.Hope that fixes your problem.This forum is awesome. I've had more than one problem solved by guys that have been there done that!!
Last edited by gjohnson; Oct 29, 2014 at 10:32 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
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From: South Western Ontario
I'd also take a good look at the frame where the lower control arms install. That's a weak spot that has failed on a few cars here. If there was a crack around the lower a-arm mounts it could allow the frame to flex.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 406
Likes: 46
From: Lebanon OH
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: MA
Well, I spoke too soon. I replaced the upper joint and have same issue, only more pronounced. The lower joint looked OK, so now I guess I'll have to check/replace the nine other ball-type devices in the front end. Super cool.
PS - I couldn't find any cracks or separated welds in the frame. Is there anything else that could possibly cause the toe to be so variable? The wheel was replaced, and there's only a negligible amount of runout in the disc.
PPS - Shop owner is ignoring me now. Shoulda totaled the thing and started over with another car...
PS - I couldn't find any cracks or separated welds in the frame. Is there anything else that could possibly cause the toe to be so variable? The wheel was replaced, and there's only a negligible amount of runout in the disc.
PPS - Shop owner is ignoring me now. Shoulda totaled the thing and started over with another car...
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,506
Likes: 139
From: Butler Pa
I've never heard of a bent ball joint. I don't even think it's possible. It would've torn something apart before bending a ball joint.Something is loose and moving when you drive it. I wouldn't drive it again until you find the problem.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 406
Likes: 46
From: Lebanon OH
I reread your post and noticed you said the shop replaced the centerlink. I would think they would only do that if it was bent, and since it's conneced to the idler arm and tie rod ends, those were probably damaged too. Assuming these parts were replaced, if the car was hit at the correct angle and hard enough to bend the ball joint, the steering knuckle on the spindle could be bent also.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,506
Likes: 139
From: Butler Pa
I reread your post and noticed you said the shop replaced the centerlink. I would think they would only do that if it was bent, and since it's conneced to the idler arm and tie rod ends, those were probably damaged too. Assuming these parts were replaced, if the car was hit at the correct angle and hard enough to bend the ball joint, the steering knuckle on the spindle could be bent also.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 41
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From: MA
The upper was indeed bent. New Pilots are friggin' huge.
That said, the tie rod ends are straight/tight, sleeves are fine, PS components fine, idler arm fine (if bent, only an infinitesimal amount). I identified a bit of fore/aft play with the wheel still bolted on, and I also noticed that there was some looseness where the link connects to the valve. Those components are good, just not fully secured.
Seems to me that it'd have to be something in the tie rod(s) or control arms, as there's just a tiny amount of runout when I rotate the disc (measured with dial gauge). Anything from the tie rods to the steering wheel would only affect total steering play, am I right?
I agree that the problem is that something is loose, I just haven't found anything that's THAT loose.
Thanks for the help, fellas.
That said, the tie rod ends are straight/tight, sleeves are fine, PS components fine, idler arm fine (if bent, only an infinitesimal amount). I identified a bit of fore/aft play with the wheel still bolted on, and I also noticed that there was some looseness where the link connects to the valve. Those components are good, just not fully secured.
Seems to me that it'd have to be something in the tie rod(s) or control arms, as there's just a tiny amount of runout when I rotate the disc (measured with dial gauge). Anything from the tie rods to the steering wheel would only affect total steering play, am I right?
I agree that the problem is that something is loose, I just haven't found anything that's THAT loose.
Thanks for the help, fellas.
Last edited by VanHanlon; Nov 4, 2014 at 09:19 PM.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 406
Likes: 46
From: Lebanon OH
Interesting...does the toe change the same way each time like something is settling in to a position, or is it different each time you check, like something is moving around randomly? Are both tires off the same way, opposite, or different ways?
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
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From: South Western Ontario
Have you jacked the car up until the wheels were just off the ground and then placed an object (like a oil jug or spray can) right beside the tire almost touching it before giving the tire a gentle turn. That will quickly show if a tire is bent or has some movement to it.
Are you placing the car with jack-stands under the a-arms before checking the suspension. You often can't find loose parts with the suspension hanging.
Also, if you can get it on a 4-post lift you could have someone hold the brakes and shift from drive to reverse while you watch the suspension for movement.
as MadJ posted - does it change randomly or always back to toe-in or toe-out.
Are you placing the car with jack-stands under the a-arms before checking the suspension. You often can't find loose parts with the suspension hanging.
Also, if you can get it on a 4-post lift you could have someone hold the brakes and shift from drive to reverse while you watch the suspension for movement.
as MadJ posted - does it change randomly or always back to toe-in or toe-out.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 140
From: Western New York
I'd also check the wheel bearings, rims, and front hubs for damage. A hit that bent the ball joint could have easily destroyed a wheel bearing, bent or cracked a rim, or cracked a hub. Keep looking. With it changing that much each time, you're going to find something that's very obvious.
Duane
Duane