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So, I decided to spice things up a bit in the vette. I decided to install led tail lights and just the front(not side markers) signals. I bought the bubble tail lamp kit from Riks Corvette. This is not the led kit, just the regular. I decided Id install led bulbs in place of the old halogen ones. So the kit comes with 2 new pigtails for where the old back up lamps would go and instructions on how to wire them. With the bubble lamps, you are deleting the back up markers and now having 2 brake lights on each side and two signals on each side. Obviously theyre suppose to blink together(when turning) and all 4 are suppose to light up when braking.
So, I wired everything up per the instructions. All 4 rear lights come on when the light switch is activated. However, the run lights up front(front turn signals)...only the left one works. Neither of the side markers up front work...The kit came with a heavy duty flasher. I swapped it out with the hevy duty one from underneath the dash on the passengers side. Turned the lights on again. This time, all the lights including side markers now worked, but front right run light(or front turn signal)would still not work. Also, the interior signal light is on but I never turned the signal on. I pressed the hazard switch in on the steering column and then all the exterior lights work. But still no signal flashers work and signal indicator dash light stays lit.
I know this sounds like a mess...not sure where to begin. Oh yea...all fuses are good...
Last edited by austinseanchris; May 28, 2015 at 05:58 PM.
My interaction with LEDS has been limited to dash stuff.
I found that I bought ones that are not dimmable. Ok so they look the same no matter what the dimmer is set to... They work good though.
LEDS are particular to POLARITY. So you MUST wire them with + to + and - to - or they simply wont light. So keep that in mind while doing your pig tails. Check the leads with a meter for the ones that dont work. See what your polarity is on each lead of the pig tail.
LEDS for marker or tail lights work but IF you need them to flash you need a special flasher as leds do NOT draw enough current to set the flasher off properly... the led will just sit there lit or it may blink really fast not sure which.
I think the rear replacement type lights which include the lens are designed to work with the old style flasher. Since you didnt by the whole kit I am leaning toward the flasher being your issue and a potential pig tail miss wired in one location. Just a guess.
Last edited by mysixtynine; May 28, 2015 at 03:47 PM.
My interaction with LEDS has been limited to dash stuff.
I found that I bought ones that are not dimmable. Ok so they look the same no matter what the dimmer is set to... They work good though.
LEDS are particular to POLARITY. So you MUST wire them with + to + and - to - or they simply wont light. So keep that in mind while doing your pig tails. Check the leads with a meter for the ones that dont work. See what your polarity is on each lead of the pig tail.
LEDS for marker or tail lights work but IF you need them to flash you need a special flasher as leds do NOT draw enough current to set the flasher off properly... the led will just sit there lit or it may blink really fast not sure which.
I think the rear replacement type lights which include the lens are designed to work with the old style flasher. Since you didnt by the whole kit I am leaning toward the flasher being your issue and a potential pig tail miss wired in one location. Just a guess.
Mysixtynine...thanks for the reply...Yea, Ive been searching these forums all day and have read gobs and gobs of info. Whats funny is that everyone with a C3 that has converted to LED's seems to have had trouble...however...it seems like everyones problems are a little different. For example, my left signal works but the right doesnt. But for you, it may be the left brake light but everything else works, etc). With that said, Ive seen members going back and forth with what they did to make it work. I think the consensis is, if you install LED's, your gonna have to change something with the factory setup. With that being said, Ive read where people have said all you need is a heavy duty flasher and your good to go. Then Ive read where other members have said you have to have an electronic flasher. And then, Ive read where members have both said neither of those work! To be honest, Im not sure where the electric flasher would go...Im guessing where the heavy duty one is installed under the passenger side dash??? Secondly, there is a flasher on my fuse panel as well. As far as I can tell, its original so Im doubting its a heavy duty one. Does that need to be upgraded to a heavy duty one? And lastly, Ive seen people talking about wiring in resistors and relays to make the LEDs work. Is all this really necessary when members are saying the simply plugged in a heavy duty flasher and magically everything began to work? Im new to this LED thing, so its giving me hell...
Also on a side note, the pigtails I was referring to were just two that were included for the back up lamps. So I wouldnt imagine that would have anything to do with the front turn signals...
YES....If you install LED's in your car....you WILL have to modify the factory set-up. Honestly there is NO WAY around it.
You have two flashers in your car...one is for your turn signals...the other is for your HAZARD lights.
Becasue you are using LED's...this causes the current draw (amp load) and resistance to change dramatically. Knowing that the flashers are set up to respond to a specific amount of current load...when it reaches that designed load...it causes the flasher to pop and thus makes the light not shine....then it pops back on...and when it builds up again....the flasher pops and so on. This is why when in some cars a bulb goes out ( depending on how it is wired up)....the turn signal flasher in the dash will flash at a much higher speed. And the same way that in a older car...much like your 78...if you were to try to connect a a trailer to it....and wire it in....in order for your to keep the turn signal flashing at the same rate,....you would HAVE TO change out the flasher because you have just added on more taillights from the trailer to the system that was designed ONLY to have the lights in it that it had. AND...that is why when you have one light bulb out for your turn signal in your Corvette...the light in the dash will shine BUT the turn signal will NOT CYCLE and go on and off.....ad that is because the circuit can NOT reach the designed/required current load...because you have bulb out and it needs that current draw to make that turn signal flash correctly.
SO....if you want LED's....you have to modify. AND...if with your new bubble taillights....and have two bulbs in the rear for each turn signal....and use the CORRECT 1157 bulbs....I bet the speed of your turn signal has changed due to this added bulb for each side....especially if your front bulbs are all still factory type bulbs.
Ok, so I tried the heavy duty flashers and theyre still not right. The front run lights are LED bulbs as well. So, in all, 2 LED's up front and 4 LED's in the back. Will I need to go buy the electric or electronic flashers or is there more to it than that? Ive read about 100 different posts with all different setups. Relays, resisters, flashers, etc...just hate to start splicing and hacking into wires if its not necessary...
The old system relied on current draw to operate correctly.
LED basically pull LITTLE current so they don't operate the same
You need the electronic flashers- on both the hazard and the turn-signals-
The other issue is the front side lights and the hazards-that need to be wired separately.
I went w/ Speedway motors turn sequencer on both the front and rear - isolated the parking lights from the turn signals- and used the modules output to also flash the indicators in the dash...everything operates as it should- but it's NOT just a plug n play.
The old system relied on current draw to operate correctly.
LED basically pull LITTLE current so they don't operate the same
You need the electronic flashers- on both the hazard and the turn-signals-
The other issue is the front side lights and the hazards-that need to be wired separately.
I went w/ Speedway motors turn sequencer on both the front and rear - isolated the parking lights from the turn signals- and used the modules output to also flash the indicators in the dash...everything operates as it should- but it's NOT just a plug n play.
Now when you say that the hazards and turn signals have to be wired seperately, do you mean a whole seperate circuit? I must say, your reverse setup is pretty freakin cool
Last edited by austinseanchris; May 28, 2015 at 09:44 PM.
If you look closely at the wiring diagram for a C3 you will notice that the front side markers have both of its connectors wired to a +12V source.
This may sound wrong, but it's just a hack from GM.
The front side markers are designed to act as flashers as well as light.
In both case the current uses the other +12v leg as ground.
When you use flashers, it's the +12v line from the light that act like a ground and the current goes thru the headlight bulb.
When you use light, it's the +12v from the flasher that act like a ground, the current goes back into the dashpad thru the flash indicator lamp that should light up slightly.
All is fine that way since it take a lot of current for the filament bulb to be considered as lighten up.
When you switch to LED, two problems arise :
-LED have polarity, so if you have led side market you will have to rewire them to provide a proper ground (as well as a diode to separate both 12v signals).
-LED need very little current to light up, so all the fancy current bleeding GM electrician designed doesn't go unnoticed anymore.
My fix would be this :
At the side marker, join the two 12v source together (with a diode on each line to prevent them to leak on each other) feed one of the leg of the bulb with that and wire the other leg to a proper ground.
This would remove the designed-by-GM bleeding, you dash indicator should stop lighting up.
If you look closely at the wiring diagram for a C3 you will notice that the front side markers have both of its connectors wired to a +12V source.
This may sound wrong, but it's just a hack from GM.
The front side markers are designed to act as flashers as well as light.
In both case the current uses the other +12v leg as ground.
When you use flashers, it's the +12v line from the light that act like a ground and the current goes thru the headlight bulb.
When you use light, it's the +12v from the flasher that act like a ground, the current goes back into the dashpad thru the flash indicator lamp that should light up slightly.
All is fine that way since it take a lot of current for the filament bulb to be considered as lighten up.
When you switch to LED, two problems arise :
-LED have polarity, so if you have led side market you will have to rewire them to provide a proper ground (as well as a diode to separate both 12v signals).
-LED need very little current to light up, so all the fancy current bleeding GM electrician designed doesn't go unnoticed anymore.
My fix would be this :
At the side marker, join the two 12v source together (with a diode on each line to prevent them to leak on each other) feed one of the leg of the bulb with that and wire the other leg to a proper ground.
This would remove the designed-by-GM bleeding, you dash indicator should stop lighting up.
Much better than my vague description!!!
Another way-
I used separate LED bulbs- one for flasher and one for parking...
I'll be following this since LEDs might be on my to do list. But for my $.02, whenever I found lights not working correctly ( blinking wrong, too bright etc) I usually start by making sure I have a good ground. A bad ground could make, for example) the right front blink, then the right rear, instead of both working at the same time with the same brightness. Not sure if the LED set up works the same way. And since I am not sure I will be following this thread. Thanks.
I'll be following this since LEDs might be on my to do list. But for my $.02, whenever I found lights not working correctly ( blinking wrong, too bright etc) I usually start by making sure I have a good ground. A bad ground could make, for example) the right front blink, then the right rear, instead of both working at the same time with the same brightness. Not sure if the LED set up works the same way. And since I am not sure I will be following this thread. Thanks.
Hey kanvasman-
LED- or AKA Light Emitting Diode -only lets power flow one way. The old incandescent bulbs will go either way-maybe there a better term but you get the picture!!!
As part of the systems design- bulbs being non-directional simplifies the wiring- requiring less wires as in the case of how the front side light is configured.
Since the bulbs can flow power either way AND the bulb- as seen electrically to the circuit acts as a resistor- can make a bad ground do all sorts of weird things. The old saying- electricity flows the path of least resistance is true-However, electricity also flows in ALL paths.
Example-
The power can flow through say your turn signal bulb to a ground- Even if the parking lights ground is missing- mysteriously it glows- not as bright- but that's because the electricity has found another way to a ground even though it's a "tougher" path-now going through a resister-AKA the bulb filament-AKA the turn signal bulb.
The other system design sort of built in w/ incandescent bulbs - is these bulbs pull a fair amount of current- as the bulb is basically a short circuit as the current flows so fast it makes the wire glow.
Since the bulbs pull so much power - that's the basics of the flasher- as the power flows through it(flasher) to the bulbs - it heats up a little metal strip inside the flasher- and as it heats up it bends- and breaks the contact- the bulb looses power - or flashes - as it comes back on when the metal strip cools and reconnects. Pretty ingenious design!!!
But now since the flasher see very little power being drawn by the LEDs- the metal strip doesn't heat up and bend- the LED just stays on.
Hope that helps!!!
I am using LEDs all over my build-You can leave the door open for days and not worry about wiping out the battery!!
My solution.....I just use a late model turn signal flasher with a 3rd wire that grounds the electronic timer for the flasher circuit so it is no longer current dependent on its operation. You can easily remove the old flasher base and get a new 3 wire one to add the ground to the flasher system....the base is the same as a headlamp base, the terminals remove pretty easily if you look at them, there is flat tang on the female terminal in the socket.....put a thin screwdriver in the socket to release the tab and slide out the terminal....insert into new 3 connection socket, add your ground wire and your done!
My solution.....I just use a late model turn signal flasher with a 3rd wire that grounds the electronic timer for the flasher circuit so it is no longer current dependent on its operation. You can easily remove the old flasher base and get a new 3 wire one to add the ground to the flasher system....the base is the same as a headlamp base, the terminals remove pretty easily if you look at them, there is flat tang on the female terminal in the socket.....put a thin screwdriver in the socket to release the tab and slide out the terminal....insert into new 3 connection socket, add your ground wire and your done!
So, I had the day off yesterday and I decided to try and nail this LED thing down. I am trying to take everyones advice into consideration but theres a lot of different theories out there.
I decided first to check the fuse panel and verify nothing was blown...they all checked out ok. Next step was I decided Id call the company I bought the LED's from and see what they had to say which, if it matters, was SuperBrightLEDs.com. So when I got to tech support and explained my dilemma, the guy told me, sounds like a load problem. He said based on the issues, he was 90% sure, that was the problem. Now, at this point, I had the 2 led bulbs up front and 4 in the back and the rear lights would come on but would not blink and would not get brighter with hitting the brakes. Only one of my two park lights would come on(the bulbs were tested and do work). So they guy told me, the easiest way to find out was 1 by 1, begin removing the led bulbs and replacing them with the old halogen bulbs. After replacing only 1 rear led bulb, they other 3 began to work(signals blinked, brake lights and run lights). So, after further looking, come to find out, the wiring diagram provided by ecklers was incorrect for the passenger side tail lamps. I fixed that and viola! All tails worked correctly. And just for the heck of it, I put my halogens back up front and everything worked.
Now, on to the front with the led bulbs. So, I called tech support back this afternoon. Same guy told me that in this case then I would need resisters up front since all the back worked. Well, it just so happens that while I was blowing money, I picked up a couple packs of led resisters.
To be honest, I would repeat what he told me but Im so damn confused now, I wanna scream! He told me I would need 2 resistors per front light(so 4 total). I have 3 packs(2 per pack) of 25 watt resistors. Two of the packs are like a stone material with a wire coming out of each end. The other pack is like a small gold box with a red wire coming out of one end and a black out the other end. Since I needed 4, I decided to use the stone-like material so they would all match. I started with just the drivers side. Wired in the 2 as instructed...nothing...light wouldnt even come on. Probably a bad idea but I said, thera gotta be some info on youtube. Watched those videos and they seemed pretty simple and straightforward. All the videos I watched shows them taking one end of the resistor and splicing into the ground cable(mine is black). Then the other end splices into the directional/tutn signal wire(mine in blue). Went ahead and did both sides(so, it was practically like a loop). Turned everything on and the only thing that did not work was the blinking of the drivers side front lamp. All sides worked, all front and rears functioned properly. Swapped bulbs, drivers side front would still not blink. So Im thinking, Ive almost got it...
I decided to use a different connector and double check my wiring. All wiring was good. Got back up, hit the lights...now neither sides signal blinks and now the rears would not blink. WTF?!? So the resistors themselves were pretty toasty which I read is common with the turn signal being on. I decided to change the drivers side to the other style of resistors. In doing so, I now lost the blinking side marker and front run light on right side. I got out and checked the resistors, not hot at all...so Im guessing its not functioning right since the other set were hot. Lastly, I decided what the hell.. So I spliced into the brown(run light) light on both sides. Nothing, still messed up.
Im really losing my patience here. I feel like Ive tried every combination of setups as possible. Now on a side note, I still have original flashers. I ordered 2 led electronic flashers, but the guy from the company zaid that should only help with hyper blinking. So, those are scheduled to be here tomorrow but not sure if its gonna matter.
I have attached a copy of the wiring I followed. Again, my ground is black, turn signals are blue and run light is brown.
Any further advice(bullet to the head, scream, pull he rest of my hair out...)? This is the diagram I followed...
Last edited by austinseanchris; Jun 2, 2015 at 11:20 PM.
Thanks Dub & Jim!!! Just took a license plate frame and hooked a Miata/Probe electric headlight motor to it...
Originally Posted by austinseanchris
I ordered 2 led electronic flashers, but the guy from the company zaid that should only help with hyper blinking. So, those are scheduled to be here tomorrow but not sure if its gonna matter.
All the resisters are doing is emulating the incandescent "load." IMHO- sort of a backwards way of doing it- as you are not taking advantage of the low current draw of the LEDs- but wasting power through heating up the resisters.
The electronic flasher- it's a timed on/off switch- it will blink no matter what the load is - it doesn't care.
Pull the resisters out- plug in the flashers(both in the fusebox and harness plug pass side pic below) -and tell us what happens.
Another LED Light/Signal Nightmare...
DSCN5138 by Richard Hayes, on Flickr
DSCN5137 by Richard Hayes, on Flickr
