blue print engines
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 56
From: anchorage ak
Ok thanks for clarifying... one thing I alway see recommended here is forged pistons regardless of applications and forged pistons Generally have the disadvantage over hypers for long street engine life due to tolerances... But now I see thier are both forged and cast hypers and tyhe forged hypers have most of the advantages of cast hypers and along with the forged.
Heres a quote borrowed from a fellow named "silver shadow" on another forum that also mentions cast pistons not really being used anymore...(one of the reasons I asked)
"There are a LOT of very confused people here..................
There are two common ways of making a piston.
You can cast it in a mold, or you can forge it under extreme applied pressure in a forging press.
*Note*, this says absolutely nothing about what material the piston is made from, it is only the METHOD used to shape the material into the shape of a piston.
Now quite independent of HOW the piston shape is shaped, you then get to chose the type of aluminium alloy, and maybe heat treatment. There are two popular materials, pretty much pure aluminium, and aluminium very rich in silicon (sand !).
O/k now the advantages and disadvantages.
Cast pistons can be made absolutely any intricate shape, because after the molten metal has cooled solid, the multi piece mold can then be extracted from inside the piston. Very complicated slots, reinforcing ribs, oil holes and other complex features can readily be built in, and a piston can be designed to be both very light, and very strong where it needs to be made strong.
Forged pistons are stamped out in one rapid and very violent operation, where a male punch is driven into a female die to form the entire piston shape. This always has the limitation that the punch needs to be subsequently withdrawn straight out of the die backwards, meaning the inside shape has to be designed both tapered and very simple and smooth in form.
So cast pistons are almost always lighter in weight, and more intricate inside, and can be more more cleverly designed.
Forged pistons will almost always be heavier and always smooth inside, the extra metal usually adding more to weight than to strength. Some forgings are truly massive, and very very strong, but also quite heavy.
Both methods can produce a perfectly usable piston, but if you either want something very light or very strong, one method may have some particular advantages over the other.
Now the material choice boils down to two very different classes of material.
Raw natural aluminium is soft, and it expands hugely with heat, but it is tough and bends before it breaks. The raw aluminium pistons in your top fuel dragster will take a hell of a battering. They will bend like a drink can or melt before they crack or shatter from detonation, these are true racing pistons. And they can be either forged or cast, but are usually forged.
The bad news is the high thermal expansion, they must be fitted very loose and they rock and rattle in the bores when cold. They also wear very quickly because they are SOFT. These racing pistons are ideal for a very high output engine that is regularly stripped after only a few races and rebuilt, but very bad news in a long life street engine.
Now the very high silicon hypereutectic pistons are very hard and brittle, have minimal thermal expansion, and can be fitted very tightly into the bores for good cold compression silent running and good oil control. They seal very well, and last a long time, and they are perfect for a long life road engine. These pistons can also be bought either cast or forged, but they have one unfortunate disadvantage.
Being brittle, detonation will crack them quite easily. But if you can keep out of detonation, they would be the best choice for most of us here.
So the most common types of pistons are:
Cast hypereutectic, very light, very long wearing, seal very well, but prone to crack if detonation occurs. What most of the car manufacturers fit, they are excellent pistons.
Cast aluminium pistons are just not made anymore, they have all the disadvantages and no advantage.
Forged hypereutectic, both heavier and stronger, very long wearing, seal very well best choice for high performance on the street.
Forged aluminium, heavy, very very strong, the toughest pistons you can buy for a real competition engine. They will rattle and wear fast and typically start burning oil after a few thousand road miles. But if you are building a 9,000 rpm six second car, you don't plan on expecting 150,000 miles between rebuilds, huh ?
All the major piston manufacturers offer their forged pistons in BOTH types of material, and the clearance will tell you if they are the hard or soft material.
Or put simply, "rubber" aluminium pistons for a race motor or "glass" hypereutectic pistons for your streeter.
So there are two things, HOW the piston is made cast or forged.
And WHAT alloy the piston is made from.
Saying "I am ripping out my original hypereutectic pistons and fitting forged pistons" makes no sense. "
So is this guy way off base?
I'm sure there are a lot of fully forged rotating assemblies out there with over 100k on them so please don't jump all over me for posting this.
Heres a quote borrowed from a fellow named "silver shadow" on another forum that also mentions cast pistons not really being used anymore...(one of the reasons I asked)
"There are a LOT of very confused people here..................
There are two common ways of making a piston.
You can cast it in a mold, or you can forge it under extreme applied pressure in a forging press.
*Note*, this says absolutely nothing about what material the piston is made from, it is only the METHOD used to shape the material into the shape of a piston.
Now quite independent of HOW the piston shape is shaped, you then get to chose the type of aluminium alloy, and maybe heat treatment. There are two popular materials, pretty much pure aluminium, and aluminium very rich in silicon (sand !).
O/k now the advantages and disadvantages.
Cast pistons can be made absolutely any intricate shape, because after the molten metal has cooled solid, the multi piece mold can then be extracted from inside the piston. Very complicated slots, reinforcing ribs, oil holes and other complex features can readily be built in, and a piston can be designed to be both very light, and very strong where it needs to be made strong.
Forged pistons are stamped out in one rapid and very violent operation, where a male punch is driven into a female die to form the entire piston shape. This always has the limitation that the punch needs to be subsequently withdrawn straight out of the die backwards, meaning the inside shape has to be designed both tapered and very simple and smooth in form.
So cast pistons are almost always lighter in weight, and more intricate inside, and can be more more cleverly designed.
Forged pistons will almost always be heavier and always smooth inside, the extra metal usually adding more to weight than to strength. Some forgings are truly massive, and very very strong, but also quite heavy.
Both methods can produce a perfectly usable piston, but if you either want something very light or very strong, one method may have some particular advantages over the other.
Now the material choice boils down to two very different classes of material.
Raw natural aluminium is soft, and it expands hugely with heat, but it is tough and bends before it breaks. The raw aluminium pistons in your top fuel dragster will take a hell of a battering. They will bend like a drink can or melt before they crack or shatter from detonation, these are true racing pistons. And they can be either forged or cast, but are usually forged.
The bad news is the high thermal expansion, they must be fitted very loose and they rock and rattle in the bores when cold. They also wear very quickly because they are SOFT. These racing pistons are ideal for a very high output engine that is regularly stripped after only a few races and rebuilt, but very bad news in a long life street engine.
Now the very high silicon hypereutectic pistons are very hard and brittle, have minimal thermal expansion, and can be fitted very tightly into the bores for good cold compression silent running and good oil control. They seal very well, and last a long time, and they are perfect for a long life road engine. These pistons can also be bought either cast or forged, but they have one unfortunate disadvantage.
Being brittle, detonation will crack them quite easily. But if you can keep out of detonation, they would be the best choice for most of us here.
So the most common types of pistons are:
Cast hypereutectic, very light, very long wearing, seal very well, but prone to crack if detonation occurs. What most of the car manufacturers fit, they are excellent pistons.
Cast aluminium pistons are just not made anymore, they have all the disadvantages and no advantage.
Forged hypereutectic, both heavier and stronger, very long wearing, seal very well best choice for high performance on the street.
Forged aluminium, heavy, very very strong, the toughest pistons you can buy for a real competition engine. They will rattle and wear fast and typically start burning oil after a few thousand road miles. But if you are building a 9,000 rpm six second car, you don't plan on expecting 150,000 miles between rebuilds, huh ?
All the major piston manufacturers offer their forged pistons in BOTH types of material, and the clearance will tell you if they are the hard or soft material.
Or put simply, "rubber" aluminium pistons for a race motor or "glass" hypereutectic pistons for your streeter.
So there are two things, HOW the piston is made cast or forged.
And WHAT alloy the piston is made from.
Saying "I am ripping out my original hypereutectic pistons and fitting forged pistons" makes no sense. "
So is this guy way off base?
I'm sure there are a lot of fully forged rotating assemblies out there with over 100k on them so please don't jump all over me for posting this.
Patern and compaction make forged tough, and resistant to heat, but I don't think the op needs forged. Hypers are less resistant.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,729
Likes: 267
From: Austin Texas
Corvette of the Year Winner 2017
2016 C3 of Year Finalist
I have had to many issues with cast pistons,
spend the money for forged pistons
and you can beat it to death, and it will stay together, forever.
go cheap and you will be redoing the motor again.
spend the money for forged pistons
and you can beat it to death, and it will stay together, forever.
go cheap and you will be redoing the motor again.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
I've seen your post that you very happy with engine..."accelerates like a diving plane. That's the camshaft sir.
I HIGHLY recommend you pull a rocker and check your "swipe" pattern on the tip of your valve. If it exceeds .060" on the valve tip then this will tell you the pushords are too short. The more swipe area you have on the tip of the valve is "wasted" motion that is not lift at the valve. Lift is what makes HP. The real negative of the wasted motion on the valve guide is that it wears out the guides and it will begin to use oil. The "swipe" does not have to be centered but it does need to be .060" or less.
I do hope you upgraded the pan on the motor. When I told them to remove a qt of oil from the pan and it picked up 10HP that was a telling sign that windage was present in the engine. Aerating the oil constantly will lead to bearing failure.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 956
Likes: 86
From: McDonough Georgia
I will weigh in here with my .02 cents worth of experience.
1. I built a Blue Print 383 short block to 400 hp. I am VERY happy with it. I have cast hyper pistons and a Howards Cam with Vortec heads. I am a believer in Blue Print products. It is a solidly built block and I have had zero problems with it. My car pulls like a beast and I can hold my own on the occasional track run or the street.
2. I have bought many items from Skip White. I have never had an issue with price, quality, service or anything with them. In fact, I highly recommend them for quality parts at a wonderful price. They built the rectangular port aluminum heads for my 454 build and I'm very pleased in all respects.
Forged pistons, in my humble opinion, are an unnecessary expense for most of us.
They simply don't have the longevity of cast hypers.
Yes, they can take a beating and keep on ticking during hard race use.
But for how long?
I drive my cars pretty regularly and opt for longevity. I don't build motors dedicated to high rpm and racing.
But I do enjoy occasional romps on the track and street
1. I built a Blue Print 383 short block to 400 hp. I am VERY happy with it. I have cast hyper pistons and a Howards Cam with Vortec heads. I am a believer in Blue Print products. It is a solidly built block and I have had zero problems with it. My car pulls like a beast and I can hold my own on the occasional track run or the street.
2. I have bought many items from Skip White. I have never had an issue with price, quality, service or anything with them. In fact, I highly recommend them for quality parts at a wonderful price. They built the rectangular port aluminum heads for my 454 build and I'm very pleased in all respects.
Forged pistons, in my humble opinion, are an unnecessary expense for most of us.
They simply don't have the longevity of cast hypers.
Yes, they can take a beating and keep on ticking during hard race use.
But for how long?
I drive my cars pretty regularly and opt for longevity. I don't build motors dedicated to high rpm and racing.
But I do enjoy occasional romps on the track and street
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,000
Likes: 299
From: New York
I've seen your post that you very happy with engine..."accelerates like a diving plane. That's the camshaft sir.
I HIGHLY recommend you pull a rocker and check your "swipe" pattern on the tip of your valve. If it exceeds .060" on the valve tip then this will tell you the pushords are too short. The more swipe area you have on the tip of the valve is "wasted" motion that is not lift at the valve. Lift is what makes HP. The real negative of the wasted motion on the valve guide is that it wears out the guides and it will begin to use oil. The "swipe" does not have to be centered but it does need to be .060" or less.
I do hope you upgraded the pan on the motor. When I told them to remove a qt of oil from the pan and it picked up 10HP that was a telling sign that windage was present in the engine. Aerating the oil constantly will lead to bearing failure.
I HIGHLY recommend you pull a rocker and check your "swipe" pattern on the tip of your valve. If it exceeds .060" on the valve tip then this will tell you the pushords are too short. The more swipe area you have on the tip of the valve is "wasted" motion that is not lift at the valve. Lift is what makes HP. The real negative of the wasted motion on the valve guide is that it wears out the guides and it will begin to use oil. The "swipe" does not have to be centered but it does need to be .060" or less.
I do hope you upgraded the pan on the motor. When I told them to remove a qt of oil from the pan and it picked up 10HP that was a telling sign that windage was present in the engine. Aerating the oil constantly will lead to bearing failure.
The 220 head should use an off set rocker if I remember on the intake valve , I called AFR they said if the rocker is slightly "cocked" it is normal on a SBC 220 head , I went ahead and ordered off set rockers to correct that because I felt better eliminating that even if AFR say's its not needed or a issue long term.
As far as parts list White gave me , 100% everything White stated would be in my motor Is In The Motor, And for the extra 1200.00 I paid you I doubt I have 1200.00 more power over the cam shafts White could have put in the motor ..
What i did get from you for 1200.00 is excuses and finger pointing at White ..
Sorry to obscure the topic OP .. GL in what ever engine you choose ..
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
I would highly recommend you check the pushrod geometry in this engine and the swipe path across the tip the valve. If it is wider that .060" than the pushrods are 2 short in the engine and pre-mature valve guide wear will happen.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,676
Likes: 201
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
As far as parts list White gave me , 100% everything White stated would be in my motor Is In The Motor, And for the extra 1200.00 I paid you I doubt I have 1200.00 more power over the cam shafts White could have put in the motor ..
What i did get from you for 1200.00 is excuses and finger pointing at White ..
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
Let's figure this with Math....It's black and white.....no pun intended...
Credit towards Cam and lifters not supplied by White
Cam $249
Lifters 329
$1200
- 578
_______
$ 622
Now upgraded to HI RPM Morel Lifters
$749 Morel
- 329 Morel
______________
$400
So out of the $622 difference $400 of it was upgraded lifters. That leaves a grand total of $222 up charge for cam over the supplied cam.
Now the Morel lifters don't use 20W-50. They need to have oil no heavier than 15W40. We recommend high mileage Mobil 1.
Morels need 1 full turn of preload. These lifters properly adjusted won't pump up. The amount of pre-load shortens the distance between check ball and seat and allows the lifter to recover quicker in high rpm.
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Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,000
Likes: 299
From: New York
What ever your issue with White is I know many more people happy then not with there engines. You need to take it up with them because as far as I know you never bought a motor from them so you should be keeping your thoughts to yourself
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
That photo is not my motor it is only an example of the intake rocker on all sbc 220 AFR heads which IMOP need an off set rocker .. From closed to full lift my arms ride the valve stem almost dead center.
What ever your issue with White is I know many more people happy then not with there engines. You need to take it up with them because as far as I know you never bought a motor from them so you should be keeping your thoughts to yourself
What ever your issue with White is I know many more people happy then not with there engines. You need to take it up with them because as far as I know you never bought a motor from them so you should be keeping your thoughts to yourself
I am talking about the sweep pattern across the valve tip from 0 lift to max lift. You need to be sure that the distance the roller tip travels across the valve is less than .060". Centered means nothing, minimal sweep is what you are after. Anything more than .060" is wasted lift and future guide wear.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,000
Likes: 299
From: New York
Tony,
I am talking about the sweep pattern across the valve tip from 0 lift to max lift. You need to be sure that the distance the roller tip travels across the valve is less than .060". Centered means nothing, minimal sweep is what you are after. Anything more than .060" is wasted lift and future guide wear.
I am talking about the sweep pattern across the valve tip from 0 lift to max lift. You need to be sure that the distance the roller tip travels across the valve is less than .060". Centered means nothing, minimal sweep is what you are after. Anything more than .060" is wasted lift and future guide wear.
I checked mine and the movement was very very small from closed to full lift but the intakes like that example photo i posted shows how they twist as it moves to full lift. I put offset rocker arms in and rechecked with a marker line on valve tip and it stayed within the width of that marker line.
The exhaust behaved the same visually as I rolled motor over.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
I realize what your saying as the rocker opens the valve if it is in the center we do not want it to move forward or backward from center 60 thousands.
I checked mine and the movement was very very small from closed to full lift but the intakes like that example photo i posted shows how they twist as it moves to full lift. I put offset rocker arms in and rechecked with a marker line on valve tip and it stayed within the width of that marker line.
The exhaust behaved the same visually as I rolled motor over.
I checked mine and the movement was very very small from closed to full lift but the intakes like that example photo i posted shows how they twist as it moves to full lift. I put offset rocker arms in and rechecked with a marker line on valve tip and it stayed within the width of that marker line.
The exhaust behaved the same visually as I rolled motor over.
If the sweep pattern is more than .060" you are loosing lift and the engine will see pre-mature valve guide wear.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,000
Likes: 299
From: New York
Being in the center of valve is not as important as minimal sweep distance. The sweep distance should be no wider than .060". It does not have to be centered.
If the sweep pattern is more than .060" you are loosing lift and the engine will see pre-mature valve guide wear.
If the sweep pattern is more than .060" you are loosing lift and the engine will see pre-mature valve guide wear.
GL op in your engine choice your looking at good work from all mentioned in this topic
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
OK as far as the .060 swipe tolerance goes, yes for a competitive engine builder this should be consider very important to assure max lift and max longevity of guides. I a retired GM engine division close tolerance machining inspector in an experimental test department, strongly agreed. That being many years ago now and my engine building days long gone, I'm an old fart that still has a little gear head left in me and would like to change the drive train in my 78. So, do you think if I buy a "complete" "blueprinted" 383 motor for non-competitive use from either the Blueprint, White, Summit or whatever company, I could receive an engine with this tolerance exceeded? Would that be considered "blueprinted"? I know that's kind of a separate issue but wouldn't the engine builders that designed this build, knowing which heads, rocker arms, pushrods, lifters and cam are being used, make sure that the swipe of the rocker arm on the valve stem was kept within the .060 especially since it's mainly affected by the pushrod length? If so, who do you think builds the best blueprinted 383 crate engine?
Thanks Tom
Thanks Tom
Last edited by Tommy K 47; Nov 16, 2015 at 03:49 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,956
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From: California
Skip White sent me inferior parts, not the ones I first ordered... I ordered Skat, they shipped an Eagle crank, ordered pistons for 11:1, sent me 10:1.... ordered Skat h-rods sent me Eagle again... sent it all back and upgraded further to a Callies Dragon slayer crank and Skat H-beams (happy i did, but had to because they could not get the Skat even though that is what they sold me and said they DID have in stock... this took about 4 months to get straighten out... LOTS of excuses... like "We shipped the Egale because Skat was backordered" .... so they down grade me, charge me the same price for inferior products, and act like nothing happened or was wrong,,,
I had everything rechecked for balance and quality,,, just don't trust them... good luck with your search...
heard the other "WHITE performance" is good.... Skips estranged uncle I believe.
650HP 427
I had everything rechecked for balance and quality,,, just don't trust them... good luck with your search...
heard the other "WHITE performance" is good.... Skips estranged uncle I believe.
650HP 427
Last edited by pauldana; Nov 16, 2015 at 05:57 PM.
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Skip White sent me inferior parts, not the ones I first ordered... I ordered Skat, they shipped an Eagle crank, ordered pistons for 11:1, sent me 10:1.... ordered Skat h-rods sent me Eagle again... sent it all back and upgraded further to a Callies Dragon slayer crank and Skat H-beams (happy i did, but had to because they could not get the Skat even though that is what they sold me and said they DID have in stock... this took about 4 months to get straighten out... LOTS of excuses... like "We shipped the Egale because Skat was backordered" .... so they down grade me, charge me the same price for inferior products, and act like nothing happened or was wrong,,,
I had everything rechecked for balance and quality,,, just don't trust them... good luck with your search...
heard the other "WHITE performance" is good.... Skips estranged uncle I believe.
650HP 427
I had everything rechecked for balance and quality,,, just don't trust them... good luck with your search...
heard the other "WHITE performance" is good.... Skips estranged uncle I believe.
650HP 427
Tom
Last edited by Tommy K 47; Nov 16, 2015 at 07:08 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,000
Likes: 299
From: New York
And in the end pauldana you did confirm all the work they did was spot on . We all run into chaos on a build be it a tie rod shipped bad or confusion on something. I delt with AL and only AL as I was suggested I do and he was great , They even had the Titan intake which I requested a day before the dyno test.
How many machine shops have that intake available ? And he only charged me 350.00 for it ..
As far as others, Blueprint has had issues , GM performance parts has had them and I am sure white has to,, But I can say all of them to my knowledge have corrected them and that is what matters .
How many machine shops have that intake available ? And he only charged me 350.00 for it ..
As far as others, Blueprint has had issues , GM performance parts has had them and I am sure white has to,, But I can say all of them to my knowledge have corrected them and that is what matters .
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 81,241
Likes: 3,063
From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
We shipped the Egale because Skat was backordered" ....
I went through a similar hell you did many yrs ago when I did my first motor for my Camino. Remember PAW on Topanga?
Got straightened out but boy if I hadnt caught it...twice
These days I go to a 1 man does all (even balancing) machine shop I pray he never retires. Actually he did then went back to work to avoid the wife
As they say nothing good is cheap and nothing cheap is good. We all fall for it once..
On valvetrain had those issues with my Darts replaced a few guides, first round 300 mi then again just under 1000.
Went Jesel, absolute perfection
Last edited by cv67; Nov 18, 2015 at 10:05 AM.