I've never built / assembled heads from scratch so trying to get some pointers on valve choice. The heads are a new set of SBC Pro-Filer 195's with some bowl blending. They will be used with forced induction on E85 with hydraulic roller cam in the .550 lift range.

I spoke to Chad Speier from Speier Racing heads and he said after using almost everything available, the "best bang for the buck" are the PBM USA valves. PBM usually re-brands and I think their valves are Manley, but not 100% on that.

I guess my question is when is it appropriate/necessary to spend money on high end valves? Looks like I can get the PBMs around $160 compared to something like the Milodon Megaflow for $300+

 

I would be comfortable with his suggestion.Manley makes very good stuff.

 

Full time racing u would know if u needed better. Part time hobbiest u will be lucky to get it all running and make a couple of races a year. If u plan on making over 600hp supercharged u gonna need all kinds of strong parts and should consider dry sump oiling. As for vlvs and quarter mile racing u can get buy with a lot lesser vlvs than an endurance motor. The longer u run at higher rpm will determine if u need 1 piece vlvs of more heat resistant material. Only u know where u are going with that motor and u should have some idea of what parts will get u there - or don't bother with it.
If u really want to know what will with your motor then go to race track and ask the car owners. Using a blower and E85 doesn't sound like any street car I know of. Mostly street cars owners and partime racers hang out here. U want vlv durability info u need race only info. I just don't know any one here that inspects their heads and vlv train enough to evaluate their vlvs for a supercharged motor burning E85. And the sky is the limit for exotic material vlvs and it would easy to say u need only the best. But my estimate is it will be years before u get the motor even running let alone ready to race. And maybe race it a couple times a year.
My advise is install 1piece SS vlvs and save your $$ for good pistons and forged everything.

 

On our higher end builds 99% get Ferrea's valves, we use Manleys for the rest!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We also do a number of blown AND injected E-85 builds. All are 100% street-legal N.Y. registered rides. One is going 8.6 @ 158 mph @ 3800#. It's a legal streeter with a Whipple.

 

That must be difficult to do as Whipple no longer makes or sells a complete supercharger for the sbc. They have a replacement compressor W510R only (lists for $6,600) and it doesnt have a CARB number for emissions either.

BTW Manley has broad range of sbc vlvs from Budget Replacement to Race Master vlvs, so your saying those are all for "low end" builds? So does that answer the OP question "I guess my question is when is it appropriate/necessary to spend money on high end valves?". He needs to use Ferrea's vlvs? Well good luck with that budget kid.

 

The valve choice comes down to the customers budget to put in simple terms!

I never said anything about the level of valves, but to address your point I would say "yes", the Manley's you mention (Race Master/BudgetReplacements) would be for lower end builds. That's how it is here.

I just don't make the Manley line my first choice, my call! Over time I've had numerous issues with their valves, much less with Ferrea's.

To the original poster's question, I would tend to lean to a "better" valve, he MAY make some serious power with his setup. I don't know all his specs, but I would probably recommend an "Inconel" exh valve.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We are a dealer for both and we do find the pricing for us is much better with the Ferrea's, as long as you make it an "apples-to-apples" comparison. Ferrea has a number of both "lower-level" and "high-end" valves. I would add this, we don't sell ANY valves according to price, we sell them around the specific build.

 

I use the middle level Ferrea valves and they are fairly expensive. The entry level is still SS and a good bang for the buck. I believe they are all forged valves

 

Cardo0 - it actually is a street motor. I know blower and E85 can easily come across as a high end race build, but it's nothing crazy here. Will be a mini blower on a 383. The problem with the mini blowers are their inefficiency and heat due to being highly overdriven. However they are really good street blowers with instant throttle TQ and lower operating range compared to a X-71 blower. So the E85 will be used to keep things cool/safe and get as much power out of it as I can. I have it local so was an interesting option compared to meth injection. L-82 kid on here has had great success with N02 through the baby blower (similar effects), but is a bit more drag orientated.

I THINK the PBMs cross reference to Manley's highest "competition" series. ..came across a few negative results on the net of the valve head breaking off. Not sure how common or just an "internet" complaint.
***EDIT - Looked on Manley's site and they dont have a competition series. I will have to go back and see which the PBMs crossed too.

I had looked at the ferrea a while back and think I remember looking between a 5000 and 9000 series?

BTW motor should be a 6000-6500 rpm MAX.

 

How would you rate "Rev" valves?

 

What size do you need? i would guess that you need .100 longer stems.

I have had good service with the race and severe duty manleys. They have a little more flow and less weight. I got a deal on 2.10 titanium intakes years ago. I use lash caps on all my builds. I like the durability and higher installed height of manley retainers

http://www.summitracing.com/search/b...ake/CHEVROLET/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-23635-16

 

Not here, haven't used a REV valve in decades. They were involved with SI for their early years! Still have the catalogs here from back then. Even further back, before REV, the owner was "connected" to Ferrea also! Not sure about them anymore today!

With respect to the E-85, it's an excellent fuel able to withstand some serious compression ratios. We have 10:1 running 18# boost with not a single issue! It's drawbacks are really limited, to be able to make 1400 HP "blown" without the necessity of race-gas is one "positive" (with the E-85 being priced lower than 93 pump here), another here in N.Y. is being able to simply "drive in and fill it up", there are many more pluses. It also reduces the water temps in the unit, runs much cooler. One drawback that does come to mind quickly is the fact it runs much better in the warmer weather.

The ride I mentioned above does the Drag-Week shows, driving from track-to-track (on 87/89 octane) and still manages 10 MPG on the highway. He has some of Ferrea's BEST valves inside this one, obviously! With limited availability of E-85 in the Midwest he races on the E-85 and "drives" track-to-track on the 87/89. Sort of a "flex-fuel" racecar you could say??

(Add) We have some 14:1+, E-85 rides N/A running around the NY streets here also!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's the valve material breakdown with respect to the platform the build is based on, we are fine with EV8's on street/strip (lower HP), EV4-N12 on blowers/turbos (medium HP), and IN-751 (Inconel) on the high end stuff. Some of our builds see EV-8 and some see 21-4N. Depends on the platform here more than the customer's budget!

 

When I spoke to Pro-Filer early this year they recommend and use + .100 valves when they are purchased complete. They've since added info to their website that states this under valve length:

"Intake: stock length (1.800" install), + .100 long (1.900 install), Exhaust: stock length (1.800" install), + .100 long (1.900 install)"

So I started looking into the appropriate springs for the cam (comp). I need to use a spring with pressures on the higher end due to the blower, and came to the 987-16. However I learned they need comps special seals specifically for those springs that require the guide to be cut to .530, so not sure if I want to go that route. So that's another piece to the puzzle in assembling these heads.

Thanks Gary. I've spoke to a few people on E85 and most in depth with Mark Sullens who will be doing my carb conversion. (Very hard to find anyone with REAL knowledge!, so love to hear first hand experience) He also knows and is involved with quite a few high compression high boost builds. For me he said 11:1 plus 5-6lbs would be about good (effective comes out to 14.5-15:1 ish) at that he said I would have to keep an eye on the blend and be fairly strict that whatever I'm getting out of the pump is pretty close to 85%. I've considered dropping a 1/2 to whole point to give some margin for error at the pump. Still up in the air.

Compression was my big question while doing my research on E85. At first being uneducated, I was going to run it on the same 8 - 8.5:1 just for it's cooling / detonation resistance. Then, a little more knowledge told me that you really need/want to bump the compression, so assumed I may be able to go to the 9.5:1 range static. Was surprised when Mark explained some things and told me 11:1, I initially thought he meant effective, but clarified he was referring to static. I've since heard of a lot of builds with even higher, plus ridiculous amounts of boost. However they are usually injected / computer controlled, so a different beast then old school basic carb'd. Also race environment getting everything they can out of it. I'd sacrifice a little power for reliability.

It seems the majority of the PROs on E85 come with forced induction. I've learned/found that it does not have as drastic of an appeal or results with the N/A crowd.

..I have heard about cold temp operation. Guys have mentioned the blower even sweating on E85 from being so cold. I do live in a cold climate (NE Ohio) but will be a fair weather only car. A little extra high idle time to warm up the blower case seems like a fair trade off for an out of the pump safe 15:1 blower motor on the street

 

H-roller cams need about 135# maybe 148# closed. If you are not going to use BeeHive springs Something like the Comp Cams #950 spring would work. You change the installed height to set the spring pressure.

with a blower I would go towards 148#

http://www.compcams.com/technical/va...art/216-06.pdf

 

Mark was in charge of the twin 4500 carbs on my friend's ride above in my post before my friend changed to injection. He had no choice changing over, if he wanted to run the Drag-Week shows it was necessary. If you speak with him mention Glenn's '56 Chev from N.Y. He will know the ride well.

Having said all that, I would have no issues using Ferrea's "3000" or "6000" series valves in your build. The "3000's" are scarce today but were very popular back in time.

You need to establish an I.H., which will be partly based on the valve lengths. Here I agree with the above post's about the +.100" add'l length. Use some "seat locator's" not "cups". Don't be afraid to machine the guides for the .530" seals. I would think they are already setup to accept this size?? Most 1-pc bronze guides are?

With respect to spring's and pressure's, I would not run anything under 160# closed (on the blown platform) and nothing less than a 380#/in (nominal) rate. I personally believe Comp's 950's aren't going to fly due to the I.H. with the .100" long valves.

(Add) Use the newer "Viton" valve stem seals, they work well!

(Add-2) I would be a little flexible on the seat pressure. The last 2 SB blown builds left here with some 914 Comps, set up at 155# @ 1.840". No problems, spring rate is 370#/in. As I said, it will depend some on the I.H. you have. All have Comp's tool-steel retainers to help with weight! Lately we've been moving these retainers easily, more so than the costlier titanium. I would NOT using ANY steel retainers at all.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Without actual cam specs a spring choice is difficult, I would hesitate to use Comp's recommendation, we find most times we use our own choice. I like Comp's springs which I believe are mfd by Associated Spring. It's the ones we use most times.

 

Very cool, never came across that chart

Mark seems to really have established himself as the E85 guy , funny he was your guy too on that. I will look into the Ferreas, thanks.

Points taken, was my plan to have all parts planned out before moving forward with any individually. As far as the guides, I mic'd them quickly the other day and they were much larger then .530, but don't remember off the top of my head what they were. May check again later today.

The cam is a Comp NX276HR.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=204&sb=2

Comp recommends the 986 or 987 springs, 117# & 121# closed, I know I need to run a bit stronger with the blower, but maxing out at an optimistic 6lbs boost, you think I need to go that stiff (160#)?

 

Gary at what point do H-roller have trouble with to much spring pressure? It was AFR that told me to use @148# max. I really don't know the upper limit.

As to the # 950 springs. If you IH them to 1.850 you end up with 149 pound seat and something near 330 open with his lifts

I've been using 932 comp cams spring on my sbc IH 2.00 for 196 pound seat and about 513 with my cam lift. I have lite valves and a relatively low red line for an aggressive solid roller. because I don't have massive spring pressure My Crane ultra pro lifters really last a long time

 

REV is still owned by a man named Al Lovera... Al is very close to the SAENZ family in Argentina and helped get Ferrea started in the USA. We bought from Al when he was at Ferrea starting in the early 1980's thru the 1990's.

I was a kid at the time but I remember the first year (1983??) he was set up at the old Daytona Trade Show on a card table in the back of (Trailercrafters) Jerry McCarts trailer display trying to hawk Ferrea valves.... he saw my dad coming thru to talk with Jerry and knew of the shop.... Actually dads engines and driver had won a few races at the Volusia Speed Weeks that year and everybody was talking about it.... So that is probably why he knew who we were.... Anyway Al kept pestering my dad about trying some Ferrea valves until dad finally told him OK.... send a set of valves down to the shop and we'd try them in a dyno motor. The valves were as good as they looked and we have used Ferrea since then.

Al left Ferrea to start REV in 1996 I think. There was a lot of stuff going on at the time.... I was Active Duty in the Marine Corps and not working in dads shop (except on some weekends) so it could have been anytime between 1994 and 1998 but 96 sticks out in my mind.... anyway at the beginning a lot of Al's stuff came from SI back then. SI was and is a big player in the "mid price and low price" stainless steel valve market. They make good stuff for the money and it comes from Israel.

REV valves are very good valves. Today some come from Argentina (best) and some from Israel (street car stuff).

No steel valve is totally mfgr'd in the US today that I know of.

Ferrea and REV's best steel valves are from Argentina.

SI and PEP are Israel. I use them both today in certain builds and as long as you use the right valve from them for the right application both are good products.

Manley now machines valve blanks from Eaton which are forged in Argentina. They did buy blanks from Manley York (who also sold finished valves thru Dyna Gear/SKB) in Pa but that plant closed in 2009 when they went bankrupt and got broken up.

I don't know where PBM's valves come from for certain. PBM is a big conglomerate company that mfgr's some stuff and re-boxes other stuff (like a lot of companies).... Their valves probably come from SI or PEP which are fine for street cars or race cars depending on which series of valve you get from them.

Chad Speier is a very good guy and honest as can be. He wouldn't sell you something that won't do a great job. He did the cyl heads for my race car and we used REV steel valves from Al in them... 300lbs seat pressure 800 open.... 8200RPM 430inch SBC on nitrous.... low 8's in the 1/4 mile @ 3200lbs on 275 radial.
Will

 

300 and 800 seems like over kill to me for a small block only doing 8200 rpm, but to each his own. If it was me I'd put that 3200 pound car on a diet

It also occurred to me that if the best valves are coming from Argentina. there is high probability that they all come from the same foundry. Which would mean that ferrea are the same as the other vendors and all you are doing is paying for the name.

Summit racing is right here. So years ago we bought sets of SR lifters to inspect from all these different vendors like Crower, crane.......... they were all exactly the same and a wide variety of prices

 

Hi Will, not exactly correct, SI does not stand for the State of Israel! It actually stands for "Shin-Ichi", the name itself kind of says it all!

PEP was another off-shore provider, and not Israel or Argentina!

Really all a moot point with just about everything being made anywhere but here in the good ol' USA anymore.

George K, it takes that kind of spring pressure mentioned above on the SB platform when you're doing some really high-end builds to get up to that RPM band safely. These are also considered VERY high-maintenance units. Opened up regularly and not meant for "streeter's" at all. We have a few SB's running 400# closed and 1350# open, with around 1.000" lifts! I also haven't had any issues with too much spring on any retro-hyd builds, just need to keep all things relative. We do run 160#/170# on the BBC platform and a 380#+/in (nominal) rate. Much of the spring choices/pressures depend on the cam lobes and where the RPM band is headed.

To the O/P, I would also consider a step up on your cam choice, it seems somewhat on the small side for the overall combo. Just my take on it though.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The E-85 is much easier on parts also than race fuel in the long run, also my own opinion!

 

OK guys, have some new info on springs.

I called Comp directly and provided a 1.900 install height, 1.6 rocker ratio on the NX276HR cam, and max of 6 lbs boost forced induction. He recommended the comp 930-16 springs.

They come out to 153 closed on the seat, and about 348 open with my lift. Spring rate of 354.

..he made a comment, that I can't recall exactly, but something to the effect that it was maybe a bit much closed but should be OK.

Opinions? OK with hydraulic rollers?