'75

How do you keep it fair? Do you charge by a flat rate manual when applicable or strictly by the clock or a combination of the two? I have a Chiltons labor guide(flat rate manual) from 1977, it covers 70-77 american cars. For instance to R&I the radiator in a 74-77 corvette it gives 2.5, add .3 for AC, add .2 for AT, so 3.0 hrs. But it doesn't mention changing out the core support? How much additional time for that? 2 hrs additional seem fair if nothing goes bad wrong like broken bolts etc?

mikem350

When I had my shop, I charged by the job, a flat rate. Many times I got burned by unforeseen problems..love old cars!

For the rad, the core support does not have to come out. Remove the fan, then take the rad and fan shroud out together. Same to install, its a 2 person job. The lower hose is a real PITA, as are the tranny cooler lines. Id say 3 hrs is fair.

'75

The core support is the target, it's rusted out. Also replacing all the foam seals associated with it.

DUB

I 'start off' by giving the owner a 'guess-timate'. And that is all it is....a guess. Because if you look at a estimating guide...it may have written: "These times are for new parts on undamaged vehicles".

Due to un-foreseen issues...it is completely unreasonable for me to do a job and get caught up in issues that are not my fault and honor that initial communication IF issues cause for that initial guess-timate gets 'blown out of the water'. Like I also tell them...."I do not have a crystal ball". It can either go easy or get really messed up really quick also. I am not a dentist...but I am sure that many times a cavity that appears to be able to be filled turns into a crown, root canal, implant etc. rather quickly.

'How I keep it fair'...is charge them for my time and ability to do something that they were not able to do themselves...and provide them a repair that they want.

DUB

0Willcox Corvette

Bill-

We bill strictly by time and materials but we don't use the rounded hour like most shops... we only bill the time we have in the job so if it's 20 minutes your billed for 20 minutes. Experience goes a long way in making those flat rate job times work too.

The old flat rate was designed for when the cars were under warranty and when things were new. It's hard to fly by flat rate when you work on 40 year old cars.

Jobs like trailing arms (on the car) in most cases we can come in under flat rate... but if the front bushings are shot that becomes a whole new story... Especially when the front bolt won't come out. For us its cheaper on the customer to plasma cut the arm and bolt out of the car and then sell them a new arm vs. spending their money trying to cut the bolt out and saving the arm. We just try to warn them ahead of time that it could be X or it could be Y.

Interior jobs.... my guys are pretty darn quick because they've done it over and over and over again.

A good example would be if you have a cracked exhaust manifold and we need to replace it.... and then all of a sudden two of the three lower studs break off while taking the exhaust off and then you get into another job of removing these broken bolts. Another good one is rocker moldings.... try replacing them under the flat rate time when all the bolts snap off.

It's a hard line to take but we always try to be fair with the customers and we must be doing okay because we are three weeks out on getting your car in the shop as of Friday.

Ernie

fishslayer143

Flat rates don t cover 40 years of rusted bolts.. you do if yourself, you think its easy...

0Willcox Corvette

Bingo Momma.. we have a winner.. that's a more simplified way of saying it..

Willcox

kanvasman

Also remember that the core support is not just unbolt and put in a new one. If I am not mistaken, once you remove the support it can have unforseen consequences as in some alignment issues at the front door gaps and maybe even the hood. At least that's what moved when I took mine out. Fixing that also takes time.

cv67

A professionally run shop will charge whats fair to themwe just have to find a way to afford it. Problem is finding someone who actually knows how to work on cars anymore.

take a look at whos actually working on the cars, the shop follow your gut

The13Bats

Nothing I am saying reflects any people here who are in the corvette business I have after all never done any business with them.

I have seen many facets to this subject, I try to stay fair to the shop and the customer but I have also been jaded by being exposed to far more bozos than legit shops the worse part is some of the biggest bozos think they are gods of repair, and if there are 100 shops in a 100 mile circle perhaps one or two is any good at all.

jading examples,
Many years ago I took my 86 for ac repairs at a known and respected corvette shop, to cut the story shorter they wanted me to pay for an expensive part that they said should fix the problem but might not,
I said I cant afford a gamble, they said that how all shops would do it, learn on the customers car and dime,
I called every ac shop in the area all disagreed, saying the customer only pays for the job/part that fixes it, and if they replaced that part and it didn't fix it they not the customer eats it, the only rebuttals I have had on that are shops who can't afford to admit they were wrong and couldn't correctly diagnose the problem.

Tommy said about a week on a frame swap, even though I thought in my mind it will take him a month it was 9 months later and threats of law and osha to get my car back.

Yeah, I'm jaded.

I ask for that 'guess-timate' I am normally greeted with we do not do that, no way to know each job is different.

I agree each job is different however, anyone that is "legit" knows from best to worse scenarios and in that they even have an average as to where a certain job falls so it's not out of line to want a 'guess-timate' or ball park idea and a legit shop will give you that after inspecting the car that while it does take a shops time I feel should be free in most cases and if not free the full inspection fee needs to be applied to the job.
I do not believe a shop should be at the mercy of the unforeseen yet I do not believe a shop should thump it's chest how great it is then not have a general idea what they might run into, it's really a catch 22.

I do not get into "by the hour" I have seen far too many people like mike cheat the heck out of a customer by talking, smoking, eating, goofing off and working for 10 minutes then wants the full hours pay.

Flat rate is almost as good for the customer as per job, it makes the shop have to get to work and not goof off, they get for example 5 hours pay if they take 2 hours or 8 hours, that option is theirs, but we all know it will seldom take less time.
Some really cool shops will say, 3 hours at xxx but might be done faster so it's less.

I like the down to earth type shop people, to many are just full of ego bs or both, doesn't mean some of those bs ego types are not good just means I do not want them working on my car, and likely they wouldn't want my car in their shop,
I also do not like shops who are overbearing that their way is the only way, xxxxxxx a great vw tech in town is that way, heck he will not tune a vw if it doesn't have exactly the parts he demands, which is fine, it costs him business while giving the other vw shops business.

For a radiator support a few extra hours is fair in addition to getting the other stuff off if nothing goes wrong, the fact is a good inspection should show if the bolts are rusty messes or clean, tack on extra time if the job looks nasty or tell the customer it's 2 hours unless your nuts are a mess then it's extra.

But at least be willing to explain the facts to the customer in a down to earth way, most of us do not have the wallet to not at the least have a general idea of costs.

PS, my 69 project has been dragging due to life and health and you see some of the reasons above I haven't got into hiring the work done....

'75

Thanks for the replies, I'm a Caterpillar field service mechanic for my job, but do some C3 work on the side for friends. Mostly it's by the hour minus breaks and parts runs. A bigger project like a trans rebuild, I go by the flat rate book because it's too hard to track my time when I work on it a little here and there. I've not had any complaints about the bill, so I guess they feel like the value is there.

The13Bats

the value? it's priceless to have a caring down to earth fellow who will do this stuff

In this case just let them know a core support loves to rust

0Willcox Corvette

I love it for you and I'd love it for me if I was the only one doing it....

The issue we face with flat rate is over-head.... If we did flat rate work based on past experience... we'd be closed in a year. My techs are paid by the hour regardless of what they collect and if I had them on flat rate I'd have a hard time keeping them based on the analogy I outlined above.

When the cars are new (and when we were a dealership) it was strictly flat rate because that's all we were allowed to charge. But then we didn't have issues with bolts breaking off or being fused to the frame.

But.. as you and most can see and understand... things don't go as smoothly for 40+ year old cars and finding an experienced mechanic is not cheap either and finding one that'll work for flat rate is even more rare.

E

'75

I understand your position and agree, you cant do it any other way and expect to stay in business. I do it for a hobby and a little extra cash. I'll never be a good business man, being able to fix things comes natural to me and it always seems weird that not everyone can do it. I usually feel guilty charging money for doing something I enjoy so much. I also have the luxury of picking who I will do work for, If they are the type who will not be happy no matter what I do, I wont work on their car. I don't have any overhead, so only do it when I feel like it, keeps it fun. I have a lot of respect for you guys that run a shop, turn out good work at a fair price and are able to turn a little profit. I'm sure it takes way more than people think.

The13Bats

I say that in all utmost and due respects but isn't that another way of saying, every job you do runs long and more involved?

While no flat rate very well may be the only way you can stay in business I respect that I still feel that you could give a general ball park idea,
You have faced the worse and the best scenarios you also know that for example if you did 100 front end rebuilds the bulk were low mid or high on time and issues,
Do you offer a ball park or do you just tell the customer I will let you know how many hours it took when we are done?

0Willcox Corvette

Nope.. we offer a ball park.. and tell them what can go wrong in advance... As you state, you do the same job 100 times you know what can go wrong so we try to give them both.

Just like the trailing arm front bolt.. we'll mess with it for a while trying to get it out.. but once we see the cost to remove will exceed the cost to just cut it out.. we'll go that route. But.. we then will stop, call the customer and let him have his options.. Ultimately it's his choice how he spends his money.

The13Bats

That's pretty much all one can ask,

See when tommy bid for my job ego was his worse enemy he thought he could do it a week with no issues, I had to talk about the mount bolts etc, while he had done one 79 I do not believe he ever touched any other c3, he was a darn good general body man and painter every problem was epic to him and I had to tell him how to tackle them, you know you sold me the 3 bird cage mount, of course he wanted it right now and then let it sit 3 weeks or a month before touching it...etc ad nauseam,

BlackC3vette

But.. we then will stop, call the customer and let him have his options..

Can't ask for more than that.

The13Bats

It's the shops who want to tell you here is your option, not options after the car is torn apart, their way or nothing....
That I have zero use for.

Snoopysvet

I wish you were my neighbor.