454 small block thoughts??
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 731
From: Youngstown Ohio
Depends on your definition of reliable. If its built, put in the car and see's 200 miles a year then yes. If its built and sees 2500-5000 miles a year no. The engines need expensive add on's to make them reliable.
I see more lower end failures in morphed SBC with large stroke than any other engine segment. These engines don't need $150 oil pans. They need extensive thought put into the oiling system.
I see more lower end failures in morphed SBC with large stroke than any other engine segment. These engines don't need $150 oil pans. They need extensive thought put into the oiling system.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I have run as big as 2 1/8th headers on small blocks. I don't have any dyno testing with 1 7/8th, but seat of the pants doesn't seem like much of drop off even going to 7500 rpm. It happens really fast in the first two gears on my 5 speed and 4.11 rear end. I always thought about installing a shift light
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,672
Likes: 199
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
I run a full roller (even have a wheel on my gas pump rod), AFR 227cc heads, Callies crank and T&D shaft rockers 427ci small block with 248/252 dur. camshaft, 825 Race Demon and it makes the power and drivability I designed it to make
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Well it became time to rebuild one of these 18 degree headed monsters at the race shop. I talked to the owner about how did it drive? I said let's go with a Bryant custom 3.800 stroke because that is how we built 410 max ci sprint cars back then. No other changes same cam head's and intake
It gained nearly 38 ci and became an impressive tq monster. The owner was so impressed that it was the end of any more of the 370 size motors
So I won't recommend your idea
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
Back in the 80s the rage for track cars was 372 and 377 ci like you like. Big bore and short stroke. They usually had main baring spacers for the 3.480 cranks
Well it became time to rebuild one of these 18 degree headed monsters at the race shop. I talked to the owner about how did it drive? I said let's go with a Bryant custom 3.800 stroke because that is how we built 410 max ci sprint cars back then. No other changes same cam head's and intake
It gained nearly 38 ci and became an impressive tq monster. The owner was so impressed that it was the end of any more of the 370 size motors
So I won't recommend your idea
Well it became time to rebuild one of these 18 degree headed monsters at the race shop. I talked to the owner about how did it drive? I said let's go with a Bryant custom 3.800 stroke because that is how we built 410 max ci sprint cars back then. No other changes same cam head's and intake
It gained nearly 38 ci and became an impressive tq monster. The owner was so impressed that it was the end of any more of the 370 size motors
So I won't recommend your idea
Last edited by StraubTech; Nov 3, 2016 at 10:25 AM. Reason: spelling
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
You can baffle lots of uninformed people with your stories, but what is even remotely common between NASCAR and NHRA Pro Stock and C-3's on this forum?
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
As far as stories. If posted dyno sheets, builds, and customer feed back are all stories and not documented proof then I guess I do live in lah lah land.
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Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
The 3.800 stroke 410 ci I built was in a historic class early 70's Camaro with a single 4 barrel. Getting rid of his 372 and going to 410 gave him over 3 seconds a lap faster and we turned the rev limiter down 600 rpm. With all parts and compression the same. Just adding ci by stroking.
If you are class limited to a ci and you want to make the most power like pro stock and do 10,500 rpm of course you need a short stroke.
But I will bet you that the bigger ci motor will always win with parts being the same.
If you are class limited to a ci and you want to make the most power like pro stock and do 10,500 rpm of course you need a short stroke.
But I will bet you that the bigger ci motor will always win with parts being the same.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 767
Likes: 74
From: Blaine MN
I'm impressed with the Dyno sheets provided, they show some decent numbers from 372-406ci. What is common to NASCAR and NHRA ProStock is the necessity to find even 1/2hp beyond what the other guy has. I believe (imo) that most of what we have available today in terms of Cylinder Heads and Intakes are a direct result of those two Race games. I recall Head work being super secret in ProStock back in the 80's, now you can get heads mailed to you that'll outperform late 70's/early 80's PS Heads.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
If you have equal parts meaning the induction is equal then engine with less piston speed will make power in the higher rpm. Case is point.....when NASCAR put restrictor plates on the cars Ernie Elliot, Bills brother shortened the stroke and built a 311CID engine. NASCAR at the time had only a max limit on CID. After Bill shattered the lap MPH and then discovered what Ernie had done they then put a MINIMUM CID limit on the engines that still stands today. The record of 212MPH still stands today.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,672
Likes: 199
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
Sure how bout all 5 four bolt billet steel caps, with the middle three splayed ,got them in my Motown 427ci
Last edited by MotorHead; Nov 3, 2016 at 01:43 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,921
Likes: 838
From: melbourne florida
2023 C3 of the Year Finalist - Modified
I'm not going into piston speed and all that but if I wanted a 454 I'd start with a big block. the rat motor is just built stronger yes it takes more space and it weighs a bit more but the advantages are undeniable in a street or drag race engine.road racing,I can't say but lots of big block road raced successfully so I don't see it being much of an issue.
the comment on 70's and 80's pro stock heads is spot on. we would buy other people's old pro stock engines when they got in a money jam an think we would get some valuable information . we were wrong, everyone was doing the same things we were.I would spend 2 days working a port and then try to duplicate it 16 times,good luck.these guys with cnc equipment have it made. the off the shelf stuff today is very good, but that's a result of the stuff we all did way back.
we are fortunate to have some smart guys on here and it's fun to talk theory but the one thing I've learned is theory isn't always right.
the comment on 70's and 80's pro stock heads is spot on. we would buy other people's old pro stock engines when they got in a money jam an think we would get some valuable information . we were wrong, everyone was doing the same things we were.I would spend 2 days working a port and then try to duplicate it 16 times,good luck.these guys with cnc equipment have it made. the off the shelf stuff today is very good, but that's a result of the stuff we all did way back.
we are fortunate to have some smart guys on here and it's fun to talk theory but the one thing I've learned is theory isn't always right.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
If you have equal parts meaning the induction is equal then engine with less piston speed will make power in the higher rpm. Case is point.....when NASCAR put restrictor plates on the cars Ernie Elliot, Bills brother shortened the stroke and built a 311CID engine. NASCAR at the time had only a max limit on CID. After Bill shattered the lap MPH and then discovered what Ernie had done they then put a MINIMUM CID limit on the engines that still stands today. The record of 212MPH still stands today.
What you said above I figured out on my own. My room mate and I decided to go paved circle track sportsman racing. That is the two barrel carb class. I had a 350 4 bolt block and I bought a forged 3.250 stroke crank. I bored the block to 4.060 and you end up with a 336 ci. You could run a mech flat cam. Everybody in the field used 355 and 358 ci motors. We got challenged to motor tear downs all the time because we were always turning so many more rpm passing people on the straights
Last edited by gkull; Nov 3, 2016 at 04:20 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
I had a 350 4 bolt block and I bought a forged 3.250 stroke crank. I bored the block to 4.060 and you end up with a 336 ci. You could run a mech flat cam. Everybody in the field used 355 and 358 ci motors. We got challenged to motor tear downs all the time because we were always turning so many more rpm passing people on the straights
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 767
Likes: 74
From: Blaine MN
