Flat tappet/roller cams hydraulic/solid lifters
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 264
Likes: 58
From: Virginia
Flat tappet/roller cams hydraulic/solid lifters
Somebody recently asked about synthetic oil, and what is as important, is ZDDP level. I ran across a good article at super chevy dot com by a cam manufacturer's engineer. I didn't realize they make their own oil now for flat tappet cam motors!
This article has a nice write up, with a follow on article by super chevy writers discussing the pros and cons of the cams and lifters.
http://http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1303-chpp-solid-hydraulic-flat-tappet-roller-cams/
This article has a nice write up, with a follow on article by super chevy writers discussing the pros and cons of the cams and lifters.
http://http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1303-chpp-solid-hydraulic-flat-tappet-roller-cams/
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 81,241
Likes: 3,063
From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
call me jaded but I dont believe reports by companys that just happen to sell the "solution"
Good moly lube watch your break in routine add just about any oil you should be good..if it fails imo you got a crap quality metal in those parts
Have used $89 PAW regrinds never had anything go bad back then that was when the supposed "good" oil was around.
Some never even broke in simply started, timed, ck for leaks, went & played just to see what happened. No issues
Your mileage mileage may vary
Good moly lube watch your break in routine add just about any oil you should be good..if it fails imo you got a crap quality metal in those parts
Have used $89 PAW regrinds never had anything go bad back then that was when the supposed "good" oil was around.
Some never even broke in simply started, timed, ck for leaks, went & played just to see what happened. No issues
Your mileage mileage may vary
Is my vette stock?? HAHA
Joined: Oct 2015
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I read somewhere that theyve been modifying oils starting in the early 2000s taking out zinc and phosphates that are good for the metal on metal protection but bad for the envirnoment in gasoline engines. So they made breakin oils that elevated levels of these metals and started making motor oils that have these higher concentrations for racing applications and deisel motors. My friend John turned me onto mobil1 15w50 for my solid mechanical flat tappet LT1 motor. It should keep me from ruining the cam.
Racer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 435
Likes: 18
From: Florida
I think there has been a culmination of a few issues in the industry that led to problems related to flat tappets. Oil quality, some newer blocks had bad lifted bores possibly banana shaped after casting and exaggerated after first cam use their were bad cores floating around probably from skimping on materials at manufacturing or hardening and their were supposedly some bad lifters that weren't crowned. That doesn't include incidental poor machining of lobes and improper install breakin, not making sure lifters spin in the bore etc... feel free to add if I missed anything.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
The biggest reason is Detroit does not build flat tappet cam production engines. No cam company ever made their own lifters. They depended on the QC that was demanded by Detroit. Well the demand is not there anymore.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
Tool steel lifters and match cam core to run them will cost your around $1200 to 1500 depending on the type core used. Most of these have to be put on a round lobe core then ground down to the lobe spec.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 894
Likes: 91
With a hyd-roller setup you'll benefit with about another 30 HP over the flat-tappet builds, well worth looking into?? Also true for mech roller's!
A very high percentage of our work now uses the retro-roller setup.
Below is shot of early 400" SBC with stepped-nose cam installed. End play is "fixed" at .004"/.005" with Torrington tru-roller timing set!
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. We need no more cam buttons any longer on most SBC early roller units, we devised a thrust plate mounting setup for these builds. Block does need very minor machining however to prep it to mount the plate.
A very high percentage of our work now uses the retro-roller setup.
Below is shot of early 400" SBC with stepped-nose cam installed. End play is "fixed" at .004"/.005" with Torrington tru-roller timing set!
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. We need no more cam buttons any longer on most SBC early roller units, we devised a thrust plate mounting setup for these builds. Block does need very minor machining however to prep it to mount the plate.
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From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
So what kind of durability/longevity are guys seeing with aftermarket roller lifter setups (specifically hydraulic)? My current BB engine is approaching ten years of age, but at the time I was putting it together I went with a flat tappet hydraulic setup for two reasons. I have always had good luck/durability with them, and I kept reading horror stories (on another forum) from BB guys who told about roller bearing failures, and others talking about their lifters being on 2000 mile scheduled rebuilds. I do a lot of road course stuff with my car, so I regularly put more high RPM miles on my engine in one day than a lot of guys do in a year. I understand the area under the curve and horsepower claims from the use of a roller cam, but with what I spent on this engine I'm a bit shy of trying anything in the engine internals that I'm not 100% confident in.
I'm open to (and invite) data/facts/experiences that would give me an updated understanding of the reliability/durability of aftermarket (BB) hydraulic roller cam/lifter setups.
Thanks,
Mike
I'm open to (and invite) data/facts/experiences that would give me an updated understanding of the reliability/durability of aftermarket (BB) hydraulic roller cam/lifter setups.
Thanks,
Mike
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
So what kind of durability/longevity are guys seeing with aftermarket roller lifter setups (specifically hydraulic)? My current BB engine is approaching ten years of age, but at the time I was putting it together I went with a flat tappet hydraulic setup for two reasons. I have always had good luck/durability with them, and I kept reading horror stories (on another forum) from BB guys who told about roller bearing failures, and others talking about their lifters being on 2000 mile scheduled rebuilds. I do a lot of road course stuff with my car, so I regularly put more high RPM miles on my engine in one day than a lot of guys do in a year. I understand the area under the curve and horsepower claims from the use of a roller cam, but with what I spent on this engine I'm a bit shy of trying anything in the engine internals that I'm not 100% confident in.
I'm open to (and invite) data/facts/experiences that would give me an updated understanding of the reliability/durability of aftermarket (BB) hydraulic roller cam/lifter setups.
Thanks,
Mike
I'm open to (and invite) data/facts/experiences that would give me an updated understanding of the reliability/durability of aftermarket (BB) hydraulic roller cam/lifter setups.
Thanks,
Mike
A well thoughout combo should be able to go 40 to 60K miles in the 1.2 HP per cube area. A 1.5 is going to be 15 to 25K miles. Monitoring valve spring seat pressure is critical. Once the seat pressure lowers and allows the valve to bounce on the seat the life of the engine is done.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
Likes: 1,136
From: League City Tx
So what kind of durability/longevity are guys seeing with aftermarket roller lifter setups (specifically hydraulic)? My current BB engine is approaching ten years of age, but at the time I was putting it together I went with a flat tappet hydraulic setup for two reasons. I have always had good luck/durability with them, and I kept reading horror stories (on another forum) from BB guys who told about roller bearing failures, and others talking about their lifters being on 2000 mile scheduled rebuilds. I do a lot of road course stuff with my car, so I regularly put more high RPM miles on my engine in one day than a lot of guys do in a year. I understand the area under the curve and horsepower claims from the use of a roller cam, but with what I spent on this engine I'm a bit shy of trying anything in the engine internals that I'm not 100% confident in.
I'm open to (and invite) data/facts/experiences that would give me an updated understanding of the reliability/durability of aftermarket (BB) hydraulic roller cam/lifter setups.
Thanks,
Mike
I'm open to (and invite) data/facts/experiences that would give me an updated understanding of the reliability/durability of aftermarket (BB) hydraulic roller cam/lifter setups.
Thanks,
Mike
I have 19k miles on my Morel hyd rollers, so far, so good. (knocking on wood). They do clatter like mad on cold starts, regardless of preload, but they are fairly quiet when its at full temp. We did have to experiment a bit with valve springs to provide proper pressure, and spring material to KEEP that pressure....My current springs are Isky Tool steel springs and have been on there for about 15k miles and it still runs great, pulls clean to the 6400 limiter. I'm planning on pulling some springs and testing them at 20k miles and see if they are worn out or not.
I have about 80 mid 10 second passes on this motor and COUNTLESS highway rolls...literally hundreds I'd guess....It still runs as good as it did on day 1.
After the success with this one, I bought a whole retro roller kit from Straub for our 65' 396/425hp car, mainly because I felt this is the most reliable combo and much less chance of a cam/lifter failure.
Most recently, I built a 355 for my dad's 70 SS Nova and went with an XE268 flat tappet and lost it on the break in...So after a full tear down/clean out and reassembly, we used another XE268 flat tappet, used the same break in oil and additive as before, and the same break in procedure, and its been fine. Truly is luck of the draw with flat tappets.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,939
Likes: 477
From: NSW, Australia
C3 of Year Finalist (track prepared) 2019
One of my Crane hydraulic roller lifters in my 388 stroker sbc was a dud on startup (never pumped up), but since getting a warranty replacement in December I've clocked up 4,000 miles. If I don't get at least 50-60,000 miles I'll be pretty disappointed (~1.3 HP/cube). I put Crow Hydraulic roller lifters/cam in the stroker Cleveland I've installed in my old f250 late last year, look like they may have been the same manufacturer, again, if I don't get over 60,000 miles I'll be unhappy (~1.1 HP/cube - it's a torquey truck engine after all). Stock engines with hydraulic roller lifters are fine for hundreds of thousands of miles - surely the aftermarket 'upgrades' should do this comfortably (taking into account reduced life due to spring pressures and cam profiles)?
Last edited by Metalhead140; Mar 31, 2017 at 10:05 PM.
