Chevrolet Performance ZZ6 Base 350ci Engine
10-26-2017, 12:56 PM
#21
Team Owner
Generally I think that buying a crate engine is cheaper numerically dollar wise in the long run BUT like most things in life, it really is not that simplistic! So what do I mean?
If you have an existing block, do all the work yourself, buy all the parts, utilize minimal shop services like cleaning the block, decking, boring etc, then it will be cheaper to do your own engine, easily and the parts will generally be of a higher quality than a crate engine plus you have full control over the component combo and will almost always make more Gross HP than a crate engine of the same size.
Now when you look at what I did with my OEM L-82 350, the issue becomes more cloudy. I had a baseline 4 bolt main GM block (2 bolt mains in many crate engines)that needed to be bored due to burnt piston. I paid the expert in my area to prepare the block, and recondition the Forged L-82 Crank (Cast crank in most crate engines), reconditioned the forged L-82 rods (lesser quality rods in most crate engines), JE Racing Forged 9:1 Pistons (hyper pistons in many crate engines-lesser quality or cast pistons), Melling oil pump ( who knows what crate engines have for an oil pump?), and he assembled the short block.
I assembled the top end with a Howards Roller cam (many crates use flat tappet and/or rollers from who? with much lift than I used), AFR aluminum cylinder heads (this one is BIG advantage over just about any crate engine), ARP cylinder head bolts (nope for a crate engine) and anywhere for crate engines less total compression of .5-1.0 point less than my 355 L-82. I reused the HEI distributor, Holley 4175 650 carb, and the aluminum L-82 intake slightly mildly ported.
All in let's call it $5,000 BUT look at the components and the HP generated from even a typical 383....This L-82 355 makes more Gross HP and Torque than 90% of the 383's out there because of the components combo. This engine was built for maximum TQ from 2,500-5,000 RPM with peak GROSS HP at 5,200-5,500 RPM..Maximum gross HP is 425-450 HP and NOT at a high RPM, maybe 500 RPM higher than a typical 383...who cares?.
Folks, its really not even close much less when looking at the budget crates....
I think a middle of the road 350/383 crate engine is a decent deal for some but there are differences versus doing it yourself that go way beyond just the dollars.
If you have an existing block, do all the work yourself, buy all the parts, utilize minimal shop services like cleaning the block, decking, boring etc, then it will be cheaper to do your own engine, easily and the parts will generally be of a higher quality than a crate engine plus you have full control over the component combo and will almost always make more Gross HP than a crate engine of the same size.
Now when you look at what I did with my OEM L-82 350, the issue becomes more cloudy. I had a baseline 4 bolt main GM block (2 bolt mains in many crate engines)that needed to be bored due to burnt piston. I paid the expert in my area to prepare the block, and recondition the Forged L-82 Crank (Cast crank in most crate engines), reconditioned the forged L-82 rods (lesser quality rods in most crate engines), JE Racing Forged 9:1 Pistons (hyper pistons in many crate engines-lesser quality or cast pistons), Melling oil pump ( who knows what crate engines have for an oil pump?), and he assembled the short block.
I assembled the top end with a Howards Roller cam (many crates use flat tappet and/or rollers from who? with much lift than I used), AFR aluminum cylinder heads (this one is BIG advantage over just about any crate engine), ARP cylinder head bolts (nope for a crate engine) and anywhere for crate engines less total compression of .5-1.0 point less than my 355 L-82. I reused the HEI distributor, Holley 4175 650 carb, and the aluminum L-82 intake slightly mildly ported.
All in let's call it $5,000 BUT look at the components and the HP generated from even a typical 383....This L-82 355 makes more Gross HP and Torque than 90% of the 383's out there because of the components combo. This engine was built for maximum TQ from 2,500-5,000 RPM with peak GROSS HP at 5,200-5,500 RPM..Maximum gross HP is 425-450 HP and NOT at a high RPM, maybe 500 RPM higher than a typical 383...who cares?.
Folks, its really not even close much less when looking at the budget crates....
I think a middle of the road 350/383 crate engine is a decent deal for some but there are differences versus doing it yourself that go way beyond just the dollars.
I thought of doing everything you described above when I spun a rod bearing on the engine that was in my car when I bought it (NOM). The second I took the pan off and found that my block was a two bolt main I went to the GM Performance catalog and started looking at blocks. I didn't want to build a 2 bolt main crank.
At the time I didn't even know GM made crate engines - 355/405lbft torque (crank of course) out of the box. I call my local Chevy dealer and they had a few IN STOCK. Grabbed my buddies truck and rolled out of the Chevy dealer with everything I needed for the swap and at around $4000 (at that time) manual trans flywheel, aluminum short snout water pump, headers etc. I was ecstatic. Got home and within a few hours the engine was in the car. The next day everything was hooked up, serviced and the engine was broken in. You can't beat a timeline like that. In less than two days I was back on the road.
Last edited by theandies; 10-26-2017 at 12:59 PM.
The following 3 users liked this post by theandies:
10-27-2017, 01:18 AM
#22
Le Mans Master
I wouldn’t use a ZZ4 or ZZ6 shortblock for a real engine build. Cast/hypereutectic pistons, powdermetal rods etc.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.
10-27-2017, 03:06 AM
#23
Race Director
I wouldn’t use a ZZ4 or ZZ6 shortblock for a real engine build. Cast/hypereutectic pistons, powdermetal rods etc.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.
4 bolt block, forged crank, bow tie heads, single plane intake, 770 can Holley. PM rods just like the Z06 LT4.
10-27-2017, 04:29 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
If it has forged pistons, it sounds like a good piece. $5700 is pretty damn high for 405hp tho...
For $6000, you could get into 500hp...all new parts and a warranty.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-bp4002ct1
I still think you can get way more engine for the money else where tho...
I would hit up VortecPro Performance for one of his 500hp 383”....
http://vortecpro454.com
Last edited by ajrothm; 10-27-2017 at 04:42 AM.
10-27-2017, 08:13 AM
#25
Le Mans Master
I wouldn’t use a ZZ4 or ZZ6 shortblock for a real engine build. Cast/hypereutectic pistons, powdermetal rods etc.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.
I have said this before and say it again, the gross ratings on crate motors is misleading to the uninformed if they are not familiar with the ratings game. Putting a 450 Gross HP 383 into a C3 is not going to get you into C5/6/7 territory with acceleration...not even close since the HP ratings are comparing apples to oranges.
10-27-2017, 10:54 AM
#26
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Apr 2001
Location: Was New Orleans but swam to Baton Rouge LA
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Cruise-In IX Veteran
I wouldn’t use a ZZ4 or ZZ6 shortblock for a real engine build. Cast/hypereutectic pistons, powdermetal rods etc.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.
They are decent/reliable engines as a whole, but way over priced for what you get... cookie cutter engine, with tiny L98 heads and tiny cam.
I’d probably even look at a BluePrint 383 engine before a ZZ6 for the money.
I had a ZZ4 in a 59’ vette with a M22/3.50 combo and I was really unimpressed with the performance. If the car would have ran 13s, I’d have been surprised.