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Happy Friday all. So I bought one American Racing AR767 Steel Wheel (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/are-ar7675861) to mount up my MT E/T Street tires and test fitted them for clearance today without the tire. I'll need a 1/4" spacer to clear the calipers due to the 1/4" more backspacing on these wheels, but the real question is, do we need "hub centric" wheels for our C3's (1980)? The original rally wheels appear to mate up tight with the hub, the AR wheels do not. OK, not OK, disaster waiting to happen? AR767's have a Center Bore Diameter of 2.858 in.
"Hub centric" wheels are best. I always try to run them on everything where the hub is designed for it. Nylon or aluminum adapters will generally solve any mismatch problem.
Sometimes with spacers, especially smaller spacers (your ¼" spacer is on the small side), it's not possible to get hub centric spacers. Actually, with your backspacing issue, it would be possible to machine a spacer/adapter ring that servers both purposes. I'm not sure I'd go to the trouble of a custom set of spacer/adapter rings, but if someone markets them, I'd go with them.
I recently had these made to fit my Weld Draglites. The fit is perfect to the wheel, and the hub on the car. Reasonably priced too. http://www.motorsport-tech.com/
Last edited by The Money Pit; 09-07-2018 at 09:54 AM.
Lots of people will come up with reasons to explain otherwise, but there is no such thing as hub centric wheels unless the wheel is an interference fit onto the hub. I've yet to see a wheel you had to press fit onto the hub.
There is no way the hub can be riding on the center hole in the wheel if there is any amount of clearance between the hub flange and the hole in the wheel. If it actually did ride on the hole in the wheel, it would wear the hub and hole out as it rotated and the hub contact point moved around and around the hole in the wheel.
Lots of people will come up with reasons to explain otherwise, but there is no such thing as hub centric wheels unless the wheel is an interference fit onto the hub. I've yet to see a wheel you had to press fit onto the hub.
There is no way the hub can be riding on the center hole in the wheel if there is any amount of clearance between the hub flange and the hole in the wheel. If it actually did ride on the hole in the wheel, it would wear the hub and hole out as it rotated and the hub contact point moved around and around the hole in the wheel.
I disagree with you there.
I've had many wheels that wouldn't come off because they were so snug on the hub. Had a S10 pickup truck in here about a month ago that I had to use a 3 jaw puller on one of the rear wheels. Not even a big pry bar or a 2x4 pulling the tire away from the frame and/or spring leaves would get that one loose.
On most cars, there's also a radius where the hub centering "peg" meets the flange surface where the lug studs are. When you tighten the lugs, it centers on that radiused portion and it can be quite a tight fit. You don't have to press the wheel on, but it's usually tougher to pull the wheel off once it's been pulled down on that section.
Lots of people will come up with reasons to explain otherwise, but there is no such thing as hub centric wheels unless the wheel is an interference fit onto the hub. I've yet to see a wheel you had to press fit onto the hub.
There is no way the hub can be riding on the center hole in the wheel if there is any amount of clearance between the hub flange and the hole in the wheel. If it actually did ride on the hole in the wheel, it would wear the hub and hole out as it rotated and the hub contact point moved around and around the hole in the wheel.
First, to the OP what size tires are you trying to run? I run MT ET street R DRs 255x60x15 and they fit perfect just like the OEM tire and no need to run a spacer, but maybe yours are larger.
To Linoehutz, I totally disagree with you...case in point. My 82 always had a vibration that I never could track down and tried everything until I was talking with my machinist and this subject came up. I measured my hubs and my wheel hole like he mentioned and there was a .040" difference which meant that the wheels were being centered by the lugs, not the hubs which when the wheels were mounted, they were never true on the hub. My machinist made me hub centering rings and trued up all four wheels to that dimension and the car rides smooth as glass with the same tires, both street tires and drag radials. My machinist also told me that after market wheels especially from china are notorious for this issue no matter how much you buy them for and he does a ton of wheels for local shops selling after market wheels of all sizes, I was shocked.
I disagree with Lionhutz as well. It is only logical that the wheel needs centered, and the studs absolutely do NOT do this. And the idea it has to be "press fit" to center is also not correct. Obviously it needs to be a good fit, but not press fit, to center the wheel on the hub. I would never mount a wheel expecting the studs to center it, although tapered nuts do help in the centering. Anyways, why are we re-engineering this concept?
Last edited by Torqued Off; 09-07-2018 at 12:29 PM.
I've had many wheels that wouldn't come off because they were so snug on the hub. Had a S10 pickup truck in here about a month ago that I had to use a 3 jaw puller on one of the rear wheels. Not even a big pry bar or a 2x4 pulling the tire away from the frame and/or spring leaves would get that one loose.
On most cars, there's also a radius where the hub centering "peg" meets the flange surface where the lug studs are. When you tighten the lugs, it centers on that radiused portion and it can be quite a tight fit. You don't have to press the wheel on, but it's usually tougher to pull the wheel off once it's been pulled down on that section.
I guess you could rust/corrosion as the holding force....
To Linoehutz, I totally disagree with you...case in point. My 82 always had a vibration that I never could track down and tried everything until I was talking with my machinist and this subject came up. I measured my hubs and my wheel hole like he mentioned and there was a .040" difference which meant that the wheels were being centered by the lugs, not the hubs which when the wheels were mounted, they were never true on the hub. My machinist made me hub centering rings and trued up all four wheels to that dimension and the car rides smooth as glass with the same tires, both street tires and drag radials. My machinist also told me that after market wheels especially from china are notorious for this issue no matter how much you buy them for and he does a ton of wheels for local shops selling after market wheels of all sizes, I was shocked.
That doesn't prove anything either way. The wheels on my C5 (CCW 505A's that came with the car but are worth about $800 each in todays $$) do not fit tight around the hub flange and it's just fine going >140mph without any vibrations. They center just fine using the 5 studs.
I disagree with Lionhutz as well. It is only logical that the wheel needs centered, and the studs absolutely do NOT do this. And the idea it has to be "press fit" to center is also not correct. Obviously it needs to be a good fit, but not press fit, to center the wheel on the hub. I would never mount a wheel expecting the studs to center it, although tapered nuts do help in the centering. Anyways, why are we re-engineering this concept?
So how do the wheels get centered on cars that have clearance between the hub flange and the wheel center hole?
Why would the factory expect that to work???
Seeing a stock application like this pretty much proves your theory that the wheel can't be centered by the studs as wrong.
Last edited by lionelhutz; 09-07-2018 at 12:57 PM.
That doesn't prove anything either way. The wheels on my C5 (CCW 505A's that came with the car but are worth about $800 each in todays $$) do not fit tight around the hub flange and it's just fine going >140mph without any vibrations. They center just fine using the 5 studs.
Again, the question isn't how tight they feel when installing them. The question is, do they just fall of when you remove the lugs to take them off.
The C6 wheels require a tap (or more) to get them loose after they've been installed (properly torqued) and driven.
And on vehicles I regularly service, when I install wheels, there's anti-seize on the hub and flange interface to prevent corrosion problems. Still when I do tire rotations on the Benz(s), the Audi(VW) or the S10 pickup that I own, it takes some force to break the joint when pulling the wheels off. They are definitely centered on the hub and the lugs just provide clamping force.
Again, the question isn't how tight they feel when installing them. The question is, do they just fall of when you remove the lugs to take them off.
The C6 wheels require a tap (or more) to get them loose after they've been installed (properly torqued) and driven.
And on vehicles I regularly service, when I install wheels, there's anti-seize on the hub and flange interface to prevent corrosion problems. Still when I do tire rotations on the Benz(s), the Audi(VW) or the S10 pickup that I own, it takes some force to break the joint when pulling the wheels off. They are definitely centered on the hub and the lugs just provide clamping force.
To make it clear, the CCW wheels are NEVER EVER tight around the hub flange, either when being installed or removed.
On the S10 I owned, the factory aluminum wheels would be loose enough to fall off once the lug nuts are removed. The factory chrome 5-spoke wheels on the C6 parts car I've been taking apart also fall loose once the lug nuts are removed. Neither fit tight enough to require any force at all to get back off the hub flange.
Last edited by lionelhutz; 09-07-2018 at 02:11 PM.
I had CCW on another car I built and I needed rings to fill the gap. If I didn't use them I'd get vibrations on the freeway. No matter how I tighten the lugs using the 3 lug method, off the ground on the ground it would shake the car.
To me always better to have than not to center the wheel on the hub. Even my Honda Ridgeline needed Hub Centric spacers to keep the shakes away.
And motorsport-tech.com/ is great. You can even call and talk to him. He helped my get my Ridgeline stuff setup correctly.
ALL GM wheels are hub-centric, I have never seen GM spend a dime on something production not needed.
I have installed several different confiruations, always with hub concentric wheels or adapters.
You may get lucky and have no problems,... but more likely you will fight wheel balance problems forever.
Originally Posted by BuccaneerTo Linoehutz, I totally disagree with you...case in point. My 82 always had a vibration that I never could track down and tried everything until I was talking with my machinist and this subject came up. I measured my hubs and my wheel hole like he mentioned and there was a .040" difference which meant that the wheels were being centered by the lugs, not the hubs which when the wheels were mounted, they were never true on the hub. My machinist made me hub centering rings and trued up all four wheels to that dimension and the car rides smooth as glass with the same tires, both street tires and drag radials. My machinist also told me that after market wheels especially from china are notorious for this issue no matter how much you buy them for and he does a ton of wheels for local shops selling after market wheels of all sizes, I was shocked.
Linoehutz: That doesn't prove anything either way. The wheels on my C5 (CCW 505A's that came with the car but are worth about $800 each in todays $$) do not fit tight around the hub flange and it's just fine going >140mph without any vibrations. They center just fine using the 5 studs.
Well, what you pointed out does prove a damn thing ether... and I thought we were talking about a C3, not a C5, C6 or whatever, which I have no idea how the wheels are mounted on those vettes, but what I can tell you is that with .040" of play on the hub which means the lugs are centering the wheel and you will NEVER get centered properly and you WILL get vibrations and with the centered hub eccentric mount, I have NONE now. Problem solved. Also, I have had my C3 up to 160mph with NO issues. I give up if this doesn't make sense to you.
The thing about experience versus theory is that when something works for someone, over a long period of time, then it is no longer theory, it is reality. So if Lionelhutz has used these same wheels without centering rings, and it worked, then I guess it is reality. But, for me, if I could get some additional support, I would.
The thing about experience versus theory is that when something works for someone, over a long period of time, then it is no longer theory, it is reality. So if Lionelhutz has used these same wheels without centering rings, and it worked, then I guess it is reality. But, for me, if I could get some additional support, I would.
I AGREE. you all would be shocked at what I see from time to time that 'works' for the owner but is no where near being right. Spacers being installed so they can run their super cool wheels but literally not having enough threads available to match the size of the wheel stud. So a 7/16" wheel stud should require at least 7/16" of available threads.
If GM could save 10 grams of steel on each and every wheel and not make the wheel hub -centric...don't you think they would save the weight that so many people are worried about and material savings. 40 grams is over an ounce and a half and to some people that just adds to more bragging rights on how light they can get their car.
I have YET to find a facotry Corvette wheel that did not fit very well to the hub. Thus I call them hub-centric.
I needed 8mm spacers made for my American Racing TTO rims which are lug centric. Motorsport tech made mine and they are hubcentric.They mate to the back of wheel that mates to the hub.
09-07-2018, 09:04 AM
Need 'Hub Centric' Wheels or no? Pics attached
To Linoehutz, I totally disagree with you...case in point. My 82 always had a vibration that I never could track down and tried everything until I was talking with my machinist and this subject came up. I measured my hubs and my wheel hole like he mentioned and there was a .040" difference which meant that the wheels were being centered by the lugs, not the hubs which when the wheels were mounted, they were never true on the hub. My machinist made me hub centering rings and trued up all four wheels to that dimension and the car rides smooth as glass with the same tires, both street tires and drag radials. My machinist also told me that after market wheels especially from china are notorious for this issue no matter how much you buy them for and he does a ton of wheels for local shops selling after market wheels of all sizes, I was shocked.
