Update: I talked to Total Seal... I think I'm going to keep what I've got on the rings front. lol! Holy @#$@#%$ rings are expensive!

Because my build is very much focused on modernizing my 1979 L82 for it's 40 year anniversary and building a car and SBC Gen1 engine that has a lot of modern technology, I thought "hey, I'd love to use some ring spacers and get some LS-style thin rings while I'm tearing the bottom-end apart."
-I previously saw a set of stock-replacement type rings on Summit for a little over $100, but I just called Total Seal and they specced a 1.2mm, 1.2mm, 3/16" oil ring package with the spacers to make them fit the stock L82 pistons; top ring is steel with DLC coating- zero gap (or course; it IS TS), a napier 2nd, and they wanted $490.11; with a traditional top ring it drops to the "bargain basement price" of $420.11.

I'd also have to buy a 240 grit aluminum oxide flex hone and give each cylinder 3 strokes. (Only $65 and I've used one before, but all of a sudden I'm close to $600 to change to thin rings and I've seen the Engine Masters episode and that's a pretty terrible deal for 7 hp at 6,000 RPM!)

I think I'm going to run what I have; lol! Over $500 for rings after tax and shipping; no way; madness!
(They told me they make rings for F1, but I think they must've been confused that I was an F1 customer or something at that pricing...) -This is for my Cheby, not my Ferrari.


Adam

 

Specific questions:

1. Rings: Are new ring materials significantly improved enough that I should probably get new piston rings if I plan to keep this car / engine forever? If it were me, and pulled this far down, I would at re-hone and re-ring with fresh rings -- you don't need to go exotic. Have your shop check cylinders for size/round and if they re-hone have them use a torque plate. If you freshen the top end and re-cam and don't re-ring it, you will likely blow the rings out anyhow (ask me how I know) and you'll be back to tearing it down again. The increased cylinder pressure on old rings will likely blow them out during the break-in process, and your motor may begin spewing beautiful blue smoke. That's what happened on my first experience with a "freshen up" years ago after doing the heads and cam only. That one turned into a 383. I would hone at a minimum and re-ring it.
2. Decking the block / squaring the block: I keep hearing that these blocks are notorious for not being at all square and each piston having it's own piston to valve clearance and ultimately compression ratio. I REALLY do notwant to dramatically alter the CR, nor go to a "0 Deck" and I REALLY do not want to lose my matching #s. Just a minor decking to square things up, even them out, and give a good, flat deck surface. Some are OCD about decking and zero decking blocks. Get your shop's opinion on the deck surface. You are doing head gaskets anyhow, and a perma-torque has plenty of squish to take up minor imperfections, or the shop can probably run a tool over the top to clean the deck a bit without actually machining the decks. They may be slightly out of square from the factory, but for street purposes and if you are trying to keep your freshen within reason, you don't have to get that drastic.
3. Rod Bolts / Mains Bolts (4 bolt mains): I keep hearing that when it comes to making good power, the stock rod bolts and mains bolts are weak links in these old blocks. ARP advertises like a 2x-4x strength improvement if going with their bolts or studs. Because I have an L82 the mains studs are extra long to support the windage tray and replacing the bolts with ARP studs or bolts that support a windage tray is like $150 just for the stud set... (Rod bolts are cheap).
   • If I replace the rod bolts / mains bolts with newer bolts or studs do I now NEED to have the rods and mains professionally checked for roundness and honed?!? I've read that if going to studs, you definitely SHOULD, not sure if just moving to strong bolts necessitates this additional machining and machine shop labor. When I went from stock bolts to ARP's on the mains, I was advised by my shop to have it torqued and line-honed with the new bolts, so did so. Your call on the main bolts. Rod bolts, I think, are always a good idea. And, yes, they will need to be checked and potentially resized. Not a huge expense.
4. Freeze plugs: Should I have the freeze plugs replaced for some reason? Freeze plug kits are CHEAP, and flushing the block and cleaning it is very cheap in the scheme of things. I would do it if you are going to all of this other trouble. Break it down to the bare block, have it tanked/flushed & fresh plugs.
5. New Crank Bearings: I'd honestly love to have a tighter crank and cam bearing clearance so I can run lighter weight, synthetic, modern oil... But are crank bearing something that should be done? If I had it pulled down this far, I would without question replace bearings on the rods and the mains. If you have the block all cleaned out, any reputable shop would not recommend you keep the cam bearings. Bearings are CHEAP in the scheme of things. Either mic/measure and do the math to see your clearances, or at a minimum use Plastigage (which works fine). I don't know how you run your motor, but from a recent experience of my own -- I built a pretty tight clearance motor, tons of oil pressure, went to lighter synthetic to keep that under control, and ultimately had an oiling issue and spun 2 rods at 2000 miles -- I would replace bearings and aim for 0.0025 on the rods and mains (rear main gets more - read up on that) and run a more traditional weight oil (you can still run synthetic once it is broken in and after some miles).

As you already know, there are some pretty knowledgeable people on here who will have suggestions. If you are "freshening up" though, I would absolutely hone and re-ring (unless your shop says the cylinders have any issues) and I would not question fresh rod/main/cam bearings. Also, if you spend some money to have the rods checked and possibly resized, they CAN do that with pistons mounted. If I were considering new bolts anywhere, I'd be tempted to go ARP/SPS on the rods and have them checked and resized, and stick with the original bolts on the mains. I think your rods are more critical. My two cents.

 

"Thanks" doesn't cut it; seriously appreciate this huge response.

Upgraded Rod Bolts / Mains Bolts: I've been doing more homework and I finally realize that if you take apart a rod or the mains, that you're not supposed to reuse the fastener; AND if you buy stronger fasteners (ARP bolts OR ESPECIALLY studs), you need to have the rod / main rehoned to size.

-I've heard the opposite on Rod honing / "reconditioning" -that it's actually VERY expensive for what you get (2/3rds the cost of just buying a new, stronger rod and rod bolt combo). I appreciate the perspective that rod bolts are way more important than mains bolts, for sure.

Cleaning / Flushing / Freeze Plugs: I totally agree on getting the block tanked, new freeze plugs, and getting the coolant passages flushed out (I've had some dexcool sludge in the cooling system). -This part I think is a definite "no brainer".

Cam Bearings: I've already purchased really nice, coated cam bearings so that was happening with the cam replacement already.

Rings: Total Seal basically said with the old 5/64, 5/64, 1/16 ring packs, the rings and materials haven't really changed; all the improvement has been on the modern thin ring front, mostly, but that they could do things like make a napier 2nd, and add an oil ring that's got less pressure than from the OEM. -I'm just not sure I'm seeing the cost of having a torque plate hone and new rings that are essentially what I already have put back on when my current rings have such low mileage on them.

-Everything else I'm of two minds about now. I see a few potential options on everything else:
#1. Leave my low mileage bottom-end alone; just get it hot tanked, flushed, new freeze plugs, take it home and give it some block paint and just bolt on my top-end components and if I run into a problem in the future go straight to the 383 stroker route. (I'm strongly leaning this way right now.)

#2. +New Rod bolts

#3. +New Rod Bolts, Rings, and Honing

#4. Buy a new 383 stroker kit and have the machine shop go wild (I don't think major reconditioning and machining of what I have is "worth it" compared to the stroker kit route. -Honestly, I think I'm taking this option off of the table right now.


-Right now I'm leaning toward #1 or #3 depending upon costs and what the machine shop says.

Adam

 

Rod resize is probably in the range of $15 each at a neighborhood shop + $75-80 for bolts, so a $200'ish endeavor. Yes, you could go new rods with bolts reasonable, but if the pistons were pressed on at least a portion will get wrecked pressing them back off, so then you are really looking at pistons as well. On the bolt front, your shop can usually torque and check the rods, and measure stretch on the bolts to give you their opinion on reuse. They know better than any of us.

Main bolts are reused all the time - I wouldn't even question whether to reuse them unless things are not right on the bottom end for some reason. As long as everything is clean and you torque them properly.

Sorry if I did not read or understand that your bottom end is low mileage - if it's been re-ringed already maybe a non issue. If the rings are old, even with low miles, I would consider a hone and re-ring just to increase your chances of success. Bolting a torque plate on should only cost a little, but then again people built successful street and race motors for decades without them. I don't think it would make or break your motor, and with forged pcs you have a little more wall clearance anyhow.

Good luck, whatever you do. In my opinion the funnest projects involve reassembling a motor. The planning and assembly is always exciting.

 

With Joe, those rings are a waste...your machinist will know best after inspecting it.
Freeze plugs a great idea, no need to have an issue with one after its in the car.
If you HAD to do something, tear it down do a quick hone, rings & put it back together.
Rod bolts? Up to you, cant hurt and not much $ for picece of mind. Studs are a waste for what you are doing.

 

I would definitely do this:

Bottom end:
*Inspect/measure the cylinders, if good, hone with a torque plate. Fresh replacement rings..
*Inspect/measure the crank, polish/turn as needed. Set clearance
*Install new rod bolts, resize the rods, set clearance
*New oil pump, timing set, lifters, cam
*Check the decks on the block for straightness, if its remotely close, let it ride, it'll be fine. (although its always a good idea to zero/true the decks, for what you are doing, I don't think its a big deal)

Heads:
*Surface/clean
*Valve job, guide check
*New springs


I feel this is the bare minimum for a basic refreshen, especially if you are going to add some performance upgrades and plan on beating on it some. This is a pretty cost effective rebuild and a good foundation for mods. I've rebuilt engines doing less then this, and I have paid the price with high oil comsumption, low oil pressure, smoking etc etc....

Just my opinion. I have done 2 of these type SBCs in the last 5 years...both ended up needing pistons upon measuring the bores.

 

I pretty much did this^^^^^ in 2014 with my OEM L-82 with 66,000 miles on the motor. I as many know wanted to keep as much L-82 as possible in the engine so I reconditioned the L-82 forged crank, polish and straightening, Reconditioned the L-82 rods (I have to check about the cost for sizing and bolts?), ARP main bolts, new bearings, New ARP head bolts for the AFR's, new JE Forged Racing Pistons/rings (.030), new cam bearings/main bearings with roller cam, Block was hot tanked and new freeze plugs, deck was checked for straightness (NO DECKING), new oil pump, new fuel, Light porting of the L-82 aluminum intake, New Clutch kit, Motor mounts, gaskets, etc......Total parts, partial builder labor and my free labor for 2/3 of the build was $6K. I would do it again in a NY minute and happy to have paid more than a crate 383 with the quality of the parts, knowing it was done correctly, and the end result....no regrets at all......

 

Meanwhile, my 79 with ,14k miles has a fresh set of 64cc aluminum heads new timing chain rear seal 8 quart pan rpm airagap intake 750 double pumper ,headders and a 9" 2800 rpm convertor with the stock cam runs great. A local engine builder has driven it many times and said you'd be crazy to change anything.

 

If you're completely pulling it down, I would rebuild it properly. If you think it's ok, replace the rear main and bolt your heads on and go. Fwiw, I was thinking similarly to you when I pulled down the 383 that's now in my Vette. Piston to wall gap would have been borderline too large after a hone, so I opted for new pistons. As I was going for new pistons, it made sense to go for a decent 6" rod at the same time to avoid spending money on the factory rods. If it hadn't already been a stroker crank, you can bet that I would have applied the same logic there... I was given this advice and ignored it: "leave it be and run it, or commit to rebuilding it completely" - I didn't leave it be, and I ended up rebuilding it completely.

 

That's basically exactly where I am at now. There's tons of crust in the coolant passages and I want the block repainted, so at a minimum I'll get that done and a new set of rings on it and just run it as it came from the factory until it doesn't run well anymore and then get it bored and do a 383 and all the proper high-end machining done.

The alternative is crazy machining and 383 now but it's not super politically feasible with my wife right now and major machining and a stroker kit would totally throw off my timeline, too. I think I'm way better off to get the car assembled and running and driving and nice and get all the old parts outta here and THEN after a while of no more major car weekend projects (2 ish years from now) spring the engine "rebuild" on her...



Adam

 

You need to change to different pistons for a 6 inch rod. On a 383 I prefer a 5.850 rod it's more ideal. But putting a longer rod in an L-82 rebuild is silly. It has decent rods already that will hold up well.

 

I'm just leaving a comment for the autosubscribe. This quandary is in my future, but hopefully not urgent.

Having read a bunch of similar threads, it seems like options 1 or 5 are best for an L48, but I'm looking forward to seeing the middle ground for a numbers matching L82.

1. Leave the bottom end alone (Roadkill style)
...
5. Crate engine, or crate short block

Good luck!

 

no need to replace crank,,just use a ''speedy sleave''

 

On the rings, one of the benefits of the thinner rings is lighter weight. They tend to have less flutter at high rpm. If you put put the 1.2 rings in a 5/64 ring groove with spacers you now have the weight of the ring and the spacer there. No weight saving, no benefit, well there is the lighter ring tension, but that alone is not worth the cost for your street engine. An old racers trick I used to use was putting the old oil ring expanders in with new rails for less tension. Always worked fine.

I would just use Allan's recommendations for a refresh and it will be good, unless you think you will have the "Why didn't I stroke it when I had it apart?" regrets.

Mike