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BTW I realized that I couldn't spell recommendations if I had a dictionary in front of me and spell checker turned on.
Usually I hang out in the C4 section, but I need to ask some questions of you C3 folks that have done what I need to ask about.
My buddy has acquired the wherewithal to build his dream car, a 1969. I found the donor (really nice shape) NW of Columbus Ohio and we have acquired it. A white coupe, 350/300 automatic, the lighter blue interior. Less than 80,000 miles.
The next stage is to plan for the engine transmission suspension enhancements.
The car is going to go to Bair's Corvette in Pennsylvania to have the work done, so I just have to help my buddy plan it out (I am the more mechanical of the 2 of us).
The lift it up and drop it down option is from the company in Alabama that builds the frames for at least one of the original Grand Sport reproduction companies, I think Mongoose here in Ohio, but that is just an I think. This option would entail an entire new frame, turnkey GM crate engine and trans, LS7 front suspension and a modified C4 rear (modified in that they use rebuilt cast iron differentials, instead of the D44/D36's that are true C4, plus they make their own control arms and have bushings machined out of poly, so it really is a modified C4 design.
It comes with a DeWitts radiator, the engine and trans with standalone controllers choice of brakes and wheels, but rear wheel size has to be taken into consideration otherwise the tubs/rear floor pan or flares, or both have to be modified.
I have reviewed the specs sent to my friend, talked to the owner of the shop in Al, and the end cost would be closer to 50K when all is said and done (labor, new gauges and CAN harness, etc), if not a bit more, but it would be a modern car, with an old body.
THE OTHER OPTION is to use the current and GOOD frame as a basis to start from. I was under the car and the frame simply needs a blast and powder coat. The kickups and boxes are great and I stuck my fingers inside the frame at different access holes and rust is minimal. The car was garaged most, if not all its life.
Summit has a 383 SBC long block that looks pretty decent
A built up 4L60E with a stand alone controller will handle the transmission duties. Current 4L60E's that have been retrofitted with 65/70E components will handle the HP and torque of a small block. We can either build the trans or have a acquaintance of mine that has a shop is nationally known in the Buick Grand National circles for building trans that stand up assemble it out of parts.
Which EFI units have any of you used that will fit under a small block 69 hood (the car does not need painted, so trying to avoid having to match in a hood for clearance). I have been looking at the self-learning EFI units, but it seems the multiport ones won't fit under a stock hood. Of course, if push comes to shove, a different hood could be acquired to achieve the goal.
If possible we will try and keep the existing gauges (mechanical tack drive of course) but could swap them out for all new, gauges, with electronic tach and speedo.
Also what suspension packages have you all used that are bolt on. I have seen a couple.
Keep in mind, the budget I have to work with is significant as he is prepared to shell out the 50K if need be.
The ultimate goal is a modern car with a 1969 body. We are going to Carlisle in August, there will be a C3 there with C5 seats. I have talked to a company that will make C5 seat covers in the correct 1969 blue to match the rest of the interior.
My buddy doesn't want the fastest (but fast is nice) so 400+ HP is good, the closer to 500 is better. He wants reliability. He wants to do some traveling in it out west and doesn't want to have to worry about break downs. Reasonable fuel mileage is also a concern. Bringing the car home it went through a tank and a 1/4 to go a bit over 120 miles. Driving behind him I could tell it was running a bit rich but that isn't good mileage.
He has a 1990 that has had a bit of work done to it before he acquired it, so that is what he will comparing it to. It needs to out perform the 90 in all aspects.
We are going to research and put in a modern radio, in essence, we are doing the restomod thing.
I have found these suspension enhancements. They are still cost competitive with the entire frame replacement option and get get rack and pinion and C6 Brakes
The multiport sequential system from Pro M Racing may fit. I have been told it will fit under a small block C2 hood, so it seem that there's a decent chance it can also fit under a small block C3 hood.
There are a lot of ways to spend a ton of money on this project as you can see. If the car is going to Bair's have them check the bird cage throughly before buying anything else.
I'd keep the TH350 and build it up to handle the extra HP. Look at the SBC400CI offered by Blueprintengines.com. Global West makes some really nice suspension parts. Steeroids R&P installs nicely (yet to drive mine but people like it ). And Steeroids Rear Suspension System. Wilwood Brakes are very good. Budnik Wheels are sweet and have matching steering wheels. Dakota Digital gauges are nice. Wiring harnesses from LectricLimited or others. VintageAir systems for heat & A/C. The companies you listed are all very good from what I hear so choose accordingly.
Sounds like it's going to be a sweet car, the fella's at Bair's I'm sure will give you a lot of good ideas.
Have fun and post pictures.
Yeah, I am in email contact every other day or so with Brian (Bair) and talk to him on the phone. We are going there this Saturday (weather permitting, I have become one of those prima donna Vette drivers that don't take their car out in the rain, too hard to clean up) for their open house. Any of you folks in the area reading this thread, please attend. The weather is supposed to be good.
It is going to be a NICE car.
We were planning on a new wiring harness for under the dash etc. Nothing like chasing ghosts from bad wiring. Utmost reliability is the key. Then performance. He doesn't want to get stuck in Vegas or somewhere in Podunk Egypt waiting for someone to fix it for him.
I have done a '65 ragtop when I was younger, but I redid it all stock (suspension wise). I ripped the suspension down to the frame and built it back factory new. But he would really like above stock, as I said, it has to be able to outride/outhandle his 1990.
Bair's has a suspension company they work with, I am waiting to hear back from Brian as to what it is. He said, but I didn't lock it in.
Yep, birdcages can be a pain. We checked it over as good as we could when we went so he could buy it.
The challenge is making sure we pick out the right pieces that work together.
We are going to keep the "old school" look for the gauges. Thanks for that suggestion, those gauges look pretty cool
In fact, after I get all the performance work done on my '96, there is a gauge package available that really looks C2'ish that has analog looking gauges that plug into the factory electronics. This is what I am going to put in my car
Well, everyone got their opinion, and so I describe my '72 vert, I bought in '95, it was a old show car, had the fenders widened a tad and the tail lights are '68 olds......but through the years, I have totally modified the car with updated stuff from the C4 era......I am an OLD ET from back in the daze, so wiring and electronics are nothing to ME, the FI is a converted LT1 setup from '94, but the HEI was retained up in back/top as everyone knows sparks and water don't mix.....it's a 1227730 speed density computer with aftermarket chip/module in it.....runs closed loop, I built my own 200 4r auto for it, due to needing an overdrive and lockup converter, I recommend same for yawl.....I have aluminum C4 heads on my '89 truck 4 bolt factory mains block, roller engine completely....L98 cam, stock........
suspension has a cross support behind the electric fan in front, rear is a 360 plastic spring and Billy Stein sport shock on 4 corners.....'89 vette wheels with adapters, so 17x9.5 rims, and same wheel centerline as stock, 2.5" adaptors.....255/50 in front 275/50 in rear.....so tires have SOME height on sidewalls.....
I get 24 mpg on freeways....18 around town, retired age 75 here, so when it hits the roads, it's not far maybe a mile from anything I need get.....
from what I read, yawl seem to be heading same direction I took with my car, starting in '95,
Have you looked into the FiTech fuel injection? It is not multi port but throttle body injection. There is a nice article in the July issue of Hot Rod magazine about their tri power set up going on a MoPar 440. They also have a stand alone trans controller available.
before buying anything get all the requirements down on paper that her wants to plan through this because some things might be overly expensive to complete for example a multiport efi setup is either batch fire or sequential fire, batch fire is the tpi cars like mid to early 90s C4 as you known. They do not use a crank position sensor where as the SFI uses a crank sensor and cam sensor to optimize the system, the only SBC engines I know of that had a crank sensor are the 92-97 LT1 and the 96-01 vortec 350 and for all that hassle you could do a LS swap. I know people can make a 4l60 hold big power but why when a 4l80 is easier. As for the frame unless your friend is going to compete road racing or autocross he will never see the advantages of the new frame and suspension when bolt on suspensions can when autocross with good drivers(google Danny Popp c3). If he just wants the new frame to win car shows just send the stock one out to have it chromed.
If it doesn't fit under the hood, he will just buy a new hood and have it painted to match the car.
The only reason for considering the rolling frame was he didn't know that the current frame could be enhanced. I have been showing him all the options.
I am familiar with the differences between the 4L80 vs 4l60 (TH350 vs TH400) series of transmissions. The 80's will fit, after all the TH400's were behind the big blocks, however, he isn't going to drag race the car. As far as affordability, his dad (that passed away) was a hoarder, of money. So that is not the issue, the only issue is getting it right. The 4L60E (700R4,etc) are less parasitic, if he was going to drag race or really flog the car hard, then the 80 would be in order.
I have a '96 and am right in the middle of completely rebuilding or acquiring the parts for the suspension/engine. It will end up in the 425/450 range, with the 4L60E upgraded to 4l70E internal components. I have a Dana 44 rear that I am putting in, complete Banski suspension, etc, have the dedicated XP laptop and interface hardware so I understand about SFI/EFI.
That is why I was asking for actual experience with the products as applies to the C3's. Since this thread started, Brian Bair told me that they work with Van Steel. They have the coil over and suspension enhancements that are desired. We went through the catalog last night.
We are sticking with the SBC as one of the requirements is headers and side pipes. While there are some appearing on the market for LS swaps, this has been done so many times (for the SBC) all that has to be done is buy the ones he wants.
In the end, this car has to ride better, handle better and out perform his warmed over 1990 (not hotted over, just warmed over) or he won't be satisfied.
If it doesn't fit under the hood, he will just buy a new hood and have it painted to match the car.
The only reason for considering the rolling frame was he didn't know that the current frame could be enhanced. I have been showing him all the options.
I am familiar with the differences between the 4L80 vs 4l60 (TH350 vs TH400) series of transmissions. The 80's will fit, after all the TH400's were behind the big blocks, however, he isn't going to drag race the car. As far as affordability, his dad (that passed away) was a hoarder, of money. So that is not the issue, the only issue is getting it right. The 4L60E (700R4,etc) are less parasitic, if he was going to drag race or really flog the car hard, then the 80 would be in order.
I have a '96 and am right in the middle of completely rebuilding or acquiring the parts for the suspension/engine. It will end up in the 425/450 range, with the 4L60E upgraded to 4l70E internal components. I have a Dana 44 rear that I am putting in, complete Banski suspension, etc, have the dedicated XP laptop and interface hardware so I understand about SFI/EFI.
That is why I was asking for actual experience with the products as applies to the C3's. Since this thread started, Brian Bair told me that they work with Van Steel. They have the coil over and suspension enhancements that are desired. We went through the catalog last night.
We are sticking with the SBC as one of the requirements is headers and side pipes. While there are some appearing on the market for LS swaps, this has been done so many times (for the SBC) all that has to be done is buy the ones he wants.
In the end, this car has to ride better, handle better and out perform his warmed over 1990 (not hotted over, just warmed over) or he won't be satisfied.
that looks like it slow like a tpi, I surprised it wont fit.
So it will have a stand alone efi, a stand alone TCM why not get the holley dominator? It can do TBI/MPI/SFI, be the TCM and so much more all in one stop shopping. I was just thinking the same amount of money spent for a 4l80 would land a much stronger trans.
Just a thought, he has no desire to have a big block car?
Reasonable fuel mileage is a consideration. After the car gets done, there are going to be lots of trips. He wants to drive it to Vegas (from here in Ohio) to Kentucky, etc. With a small block done right, with the right EFI, 20+ mpg is quite doable. Probably going to stay in the 3.07 gear range, that is what I have in the '96. It is also what the folks in Alabama were recommending as they put the 60/65/70 series of trans behind the LS engines they use with a 3.07.
If we have to shift gears and go with an LS swap, we need to find side pipes and headers for it. That is one "must have". We are both 60+, he is building a car that has been his dream machine for the last 40 years and now he can.
We realize it is not going to be a stoplight killer machine, that is not the purpose. We are building a cruising/touring machine that is just fun to drive, is easy to ride in (he as well as I have orthopedic issues from bike wrecks, car wrecks, working hard and life in general).
We are going to have the wiring all replaced, the whole car gone through. We are going to probably put in C5 seats. There will be one at Carlisle this year that has C5 seats in it. The company will make the correct 1969 blue leather seat covers for the C5 seats.
Not wedded to any EFI solution, other than he doesn't like the look of the units that "look" like carbs. So we will research and come up with the bestest way to do it.
Reasonable fuel mileage is a consideration. After the car gets done, there are going to be lots of trips. He wants to drive it to Vegas (from here in Ohio) to Kentucky, etc. With a small block done right, with the right EFI, 20+ mpg is quite doable. Probably going to stay in the 3.07 gear range, that is what I have in the '96. It is also what the folks in Alabama were recommending as they put the 60/65/70 series of trans behind the LS engines they use with a 3.07.
If we have to shift gears and go with an LS swap, we need to find side pipes and headers for it. That is one "must have". We are both 60+, he is building a car that has been his dream machine for the last 40 years and now he can.
We realize it is not going to be a stoplight killer machine, that is not the purpose. We are building a cruising/touring machine that is just fun to drive, is easy to ride in (he as well as I have orthopedic issues from bike wrecks, car wrecks, working hard and life in general).
We are going to have the wiring all replaced, the whole car gone through. We are going to probably put in C5 seats. There will be one at Carlisle this year that has C5 seats in it. The company will make the correct 1969 blue leather seat covers for the C5 seats.
Not wedded to any EFI solution, other than he doesn't like the look of the units that "look" like carbs. So we will research and come up with the bestest way to do it.
there are companies that make sidepipes for ls swaps, if he doesnt like tbi units then MPI/SFI is the best option and in that case LS swaps come with the SFI intake,rails,injectors cam and crank sensors. I'd pick up a low mileage 6.0 truck motor, buy the accessories he wants, swap the cam to make the 400 hp he wants/needs to be content then use the https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-550-929 type of ecm and tcm
05-13-2019, 08:41 PM
1969 Engine,Fuel Injection Transmission Recommondations
