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No need to pull engine. Pull lifters and remove cam to inspect. If the cam is still good, replace the bad lifter and use molly paste this time on the lobes. Why make it more complicated?
There is always the possibility the cam will not come out. The oil pump gear and rear bearing journal have to clear the stuck lifter. The bad lifter appears to be way in the back.
You said the cam is Nitrided. The lobe should be fine in the short term is was run.
Back to the drawing board, good luck.
Originally Posted by jackson
I've never tried to R&R a cam bass ackwards ... "butt" ...
... cam tunnel's aft bore is covered by a freeze plug ... R&R plug easily w/ motor out.
IF the gear becomes an issue, perhaps pull cam out; butt first? Dunno, never tried it.
While cam is out (regardless if via fore or aft), IF #8 EX lifter won't come out bottom, perhaps you can reach thru aft opening w/ a small file and dress lifter's edges enough so it can readily be pulled from top without wrecking bore.
Originally Posted by HeadsU.P.
I have heard good things about Nitriding. But few customers want to pay the extra $100 or so and wait for a backorder.
I don't blame you for not wanting to operate a engine hoist again. I would do whatever I could to avoid that. Maybe even dropping the pan for a visual of the cam / lifter from underneath. Then precede with common judgement. You can also turn the crank to put the cam lobe at the highest point on that lifter.
Bad lifter is in the back. So removal of cam out the back, if even possible would be worse trying to clear the other journals and 15 lobes.
If you can remove the lifter across from the stuck one, maybe you can get something in that bore to pry on the other lifter, gently. IDK
At this point you have no proof the lifter is mushroomed. You have no visual. The use of a dental mirror from a pharmacy may help you see what's going on, again going through the opposite side bore. Or, a inspection camera, maybe?
The lifter is steel the block is iron. Theoretically, the lifter will be damaged on removal long before the iron will. But before I pull the engine, I would grab the lifter like a bad aching molar with channel-locks or vise grips, twist and pull.
HUP ... it is You who first raised the gear issue ... now, you're dissenting with yourself
No need to pull engine. Pull lifters and remove cam to inspect. If the cam is still good, replace the bad lifter and use molly paste this time on the lobes. Why make it more complicated?
It seems OP has wiped both a lobe & lifter and seems face / crown of lifter is so deformed-smeared & (in places) that face / crown OD has become so enlarged it cannot fit thru bottom ID of bore ...will not pull out of bore. It seems forcing lifter's damaged crown into bore's lead-in, and then thru bore will likely damage bore; perhaps gravely. JMO
You or the O.P. have no proof of that, even though very likely. You need a visual before jumping to conclusions. No one has seen the bottom of the lifter yet.
Originally Posted by HeadsU.P.
You or the poster have no proof of that, even though likely. You need a visual before jumping to conclusions. No one has seen the bottom of the lifter yet.
The lifter won't readily pull out ,,, that's evidence its face is deformed.
The lifter is setting too low in bore ... that's evidence of much wear ... typical Both lifter and lobe wear when there's a failure.
Last edited by vettebuyer6369; Mar 22, 2020 at 06:15 PM.
Reason: Remove quote of deleted post
Dropped the pan today. The lobe is gone, and so is the bottom of the lifter. The second photo shows the bottom of the lifter when it’s pulled up to the point where it jams. The other side of that lobe doesn’t look too good either, but I didn’t take a photo of it.
For the Hardhead Uber Pizzwit
Took some three weeks ... there's confirmation of "PROOF"
OP rgwoehr
It can surely be fixed ... but speed is now your enemy ... just proceed carefully & slowly ... while sometimes casting a jaundiced eye upon comment is prudent.
I’ve started tearing it apart. Just gotta pull the water pump, ac compressor, exhaust, and the trans, and I can yank it out. I was debating just replacing the cam with a roller, but I pulled one of the caps off and the bearings had some weird markings on them. There was some grit in there that got past the filter. Gonna tear it all down and clean it up.
I’m thinking either comp XR276 or the Howard’s cam that is basically the same, I think it was the 110245?
If you see debris/grit throughout, suggest complete disassembly and block goes in shop for thorough cleaning including bake & blast.
Again, don't force smeared lifter thru bore.
I pulled the motor out today and tore it down. The only issue I had removing the cam was that I got ahead of myself and forgot to pull off the fuel pump, so the push rod was preventing it from coming out. I just had to pull that one lifter up until it bound up and the cam cleared it no problem. Main and rod bearings had some wear, not through the plating, but they looked pretty shiny. Also saw some wear on the cylinder walls, with 6, 7, and 8 being the worst. Some light scoring I can just barely catch with my fingernail and one more severe scratch in #6. I saw some of what looked like debris embedded in piston skirts, but I’m not sure if that’s what I was looking at. I don’t think I could get a photo of that.
The lobe lost about 0.140” on the shorter side of the lobe, and the lifter lost about 0.060” on the shorter side.
From: Arizona - If you don’t know CFI, STOP proliferating the myths around it...
Originally Posted by rgwoehr
I pulled the motor out today and tore it down. The only issue I had removing the cam was that I got ahead of myself and forgot to pull off the fuel pump, so the push rod was preventing it from coming out. I just had to pull that one lifter up until it bound up and the cam cleared it no problem. Main and rod bearings had some wear, not through the plating, but they looked pretty shiny. Also saw some wear on the cylinder walls, with 6, 7, and 8 being the worst. Some light scoring I can just barely catch with my fingernail and one more severe scratch in #6. I saw some of what looked like debris embedded in piston skirts, but I’m not sure if that’s what I was looking at. I don’t think I could get a photo of that.
The lobe lost about 0.140” on the shorter side of the lobe, and the lifter lost about 0.060” on the shorter side.
Wiping a lobe sucks no matter how you look at it and depending on how bad, it "could" mean pulling the entire engine apart again and checking everything (bearings) and clean it up real good before reassembly. Honestly, I would NEVER install another flat tappet cam in ANY motor ever again, no matter what. It just isn't worth the risk or gamble. I personally have never wiped a cam on new startup, but have known plenty of guys that have and it was ugly on a fresh motor. If you are dead set on the previous cam spec, find a company that will grind you a roller to those/your spec's or closest to it. There are plenty of places you can call. Yes, the roller will end up costing you a little more for the retro kit, but it is WELL worth the extra money spent and the piece of mind that you don't have to really worry about the break-in procedure and adding more zinc or zinc additive to your oil. Put it all together, prime the oil pump and hit the key, got oil pressure...you are golden. I would say to look around and find a good set of lifters as well. Morel makes good lifters, but the choice is yours. This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Good luck on your new motor.
Last edited by Buccaneer; Apr 26, 2020 at 08:07 PM.
Wiping a lobe sucks no matter how you look at it and depending on how bad, it "could" mean pulling the entire engine apart again and checking everything (bearings) and clean it up real good before reassembly. Honestly, I would NEVER install another flat tappet cam in ANY motor ever again, no matter what. It just isn't worth the risk or gamble. I personally have never wiped a cam on new startup, but have know plenty of guys that have and it was ugly on a fresh motor. If you are dead set on the previous cam spec, find a company that will grind you a roller to those/your spec's or closest to it. There are plenty of places you can call. Yes, the roller will end up costing you a little more for the retro kit, but it is WELL worth the extra money spent and the piece of mind that you don't have to really worry about the break-in procedure and adding more zinc or zinc additive to your oil. Put it all together, prime the oil pump and hit the key, got oil pressure...you are golden. I would say to look around and fine a good set of lifters as well. Morel makes good lifters, but the choice is yours. This IMO and I'm sticking to it. Good luck on your new motor.
Yeah, I’m done with flat tappet cams. I was considering going with a roller cam when I bought this one but decided I didn’t want to spend the extra $400 or so. Now I’m looking at probably another $1500 to rebuild this motor with a roller cam. Some day I’ll learn not to cheap out.
Sorry 'bout that.
just because a roller's a roller doesn't ensure success.
FWIW, nowadays, the default material for most aftermarket roller cam cores is cast iron/ austempered ... it's still cast iron
FYI, all those zillions of Chev-GMC 305/350 V8s that had OE rollers ... all are billet steel.
Billet steel is preferred but a premium.
And budget roller Lifters will likely break your heart as well ... maybe not sooner ... but later
That's correct,another thing worthy of note is the chrysler and ford guys don't seem to have nearly the issue with flat tappet cams, mostly due to a larger diameter lifter.
in addition all these fast ramp cams as I noted before are made by mass producers and not by comp etc they only do custom grinds in house. My new cam was done by Racer Brown Cams in baltimore. These guys new things about lobe designs in the 70's that most cam companies are just learning today..every cam Jim grinds , he grinds and takes pride in it, it's not mass produced. Never heard of them? The designed every performance cam for chrysler from the 60's to the 80's and for guys like Richard petty dick Landy Sox and martin, and lots of chevy guys. It cost me 75 bucks more than A comp cam but it was money very well spent.
people complain about having to use zinc in the oil, really? There are so many types of oil with zinc in them now it's not an issue. You can get it anywhere,roller cam or not you should use it anyway.
I feel absolutely awful for the o.p. he has a real mess on his hands.I don't wish it on anybody, I hope it turns out well.
I know roller cams can go bad too. I've heard of roller lifters rotating and wiping out the cam, hopefully that won't be a future thread of mine. I'll probably keep running VR1 oil because of the mechanical fuel pump push rod. As far as quality lifters go, I've read the Morel 5372 lifters are good. I had been looking at a Howards cam and lifter kit, looks like it includes Howards 91164-N lifters. Are their lifters any good or should I plan on buying just the cam and buying different lifters?
What do you guys think of this? All the cylinders have some scoring but 3 of them look like this. They're not very deep, but I can catch them with my fingernail. Does this need fixing or can I leave them alone?
Morel lifters are expensive . Comps lifters are made by I think stanadyne and have been good.
I wouldn't get hung up on the scratches, but I think the cam was more human error than anything.
From: Arizona - If you don’t know CFI, STOP proliferating the myths around it...
Originally Posted by 7t9l82
Morel lifters are expensive . Comps lifters are made by I think stanadyne and have been good.
I wouldn't get hung up on the scratches, but I think the cam was more human error than anything.
Yep, Morel is maybe a tad more, but you know what they say..."You can pay me now or you can pay me later". Morel lifters IMO are good quality lifters for my builds and I've been very happy with them with no issues to date on any motor built. Do the high-end roller lifters go bad? Yep, and so does everything else, but the chances are less with a good quality roller overall IMO. Remember, don't go cheap and your chances of things going bad are reduced. I really have a problem when people want to go cheap on things and then when things go really wrong they complain about it, really? Why go cheap on a build with IMPORTANT items like the rotating assembly including a cam and lifters when you can go cheap on things like an oil pan, timing cover etc... I guess some people on this forum have TONS of money to just throw away on mistakes and on endless DO OVERS because they got cheap on things. Well, that's fine if that's what you want to do, it's your money. This BTW is in no way directed to the OP and sorry if it looks that way, it isn't intentional. I do feel your pain and your wallet will take a hit for sure. The important thing to take away on all this is that you leaned from this experience.
Have I made mistakes in the past, yes, but I learned from those mistakes early on and don't tend to make them now. Yes, there are plenty of cheap Chinese parts out there and good parts out there that won't break the bank and are good quality made in USA...And there are also parts out there that unless you are professionally racing your car or you just want the best of the best in your motor are WAY too expensive for the average guy to buy just to do a street/strip motor on a fair budget.
My original post that I would NEVER install another flat tappet cam in any motor still holds true, I just won't do it. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that are around the same period of time as me from back in the day that now say the same thing. To me, it just doesn't make any sense in this day and age to go old school technology. Back in the day, ALL my motors were solid lifter cams anyway. When I was running a flat tappet cam after the EPA deemed it necessary to remove or cut way back on the ZZP/zinc content of oil, I always added a 4oz bottle of GM EOS at every oil change and had several bottles handy. This was more of a cheap GM insurance policy which made more sense than not doing it and not having worry or have to pull the motor again for a rebuild and spend another $3 to 5K or so. A lot of people WILL argue this subject about oil and zinc forever, but it's just not worth the grief or the cost if things if they go wrong when you could have probably prevented it in the first place.
On the flip side, I know plenty of guys in the newer C5 and C6 vettes that have destroyed their expensive built to the hilt LS motors because a roller lifter came apart which is bad news no matter how you look at it. Were they revving the ever loving crap out of the motor and may have exceeded the rpm tolerance of the lifters? Knowing some of them, probably, but the fact remains that stuff happens. If flat tappet cams were the cats meow and the ultimate secret to make a motor run better, I'm sure everyone else including GM would be putting them in all the LS motors or other motors, but they don't. Also, I know what my machinist would say about those cylinders, but that's up to you.
Last edited by Buccaneer; Apr 26, 2020 at 08:08 PM.
I know roller cams can go bad too. I've heard of roller lifters rotating and wiping out the cam, hopefully that won't be a future thread of mine. I'll probably keep running VR1 oil because of the mechanical fuel pump push rod. As far as quality lifters go, I've read the Morel 5372 lifters are good. I had been looking at a Howards cam and lifter kit, looks like it includes Howards 91164-N lifters. Are their lifters any good or should I plan on buying just the cam and buying different lifters?
What do you guys think of this? All the cylinders have some scoring but 3 of them look like this. They're not very deep, but I can catch them with my fingernail. Does this need fixing or can I leave them alone?
I dunno what else may be lacking, but unless you rebore it again, suggest do not spend much on putting that block back together ,,, certainly not a decent roller setup or better pistons or better rings.
As I suggested last week to another here ... perhaps find a rebuildable core roller L31 iron vortec.... and build that ... then the gent quickly found one ... in Belgium, no less!
note crank looks as if it's been rebalanced since new.
Good luck on your new motor.
