Someone always wants to change the stock style suspension on there C3. It rides rough, doesn't handle good like a new car. So wants the fix? Well it must be spending 20 or 30k on a new chassis or some kind of elaborate retrofit coilover system. Here's something to think about. This car still has it's stock style suspension. No coilovers stock style chassis. I know it has a lot of other things to. And yes lots of money to build it this way. But who of you can drive like this? If you can you already have one. Just saying nothing wrong with the bones of these cars and there's a lot of things you can do to improve want you already have. Watch and enjoy

 

Great video, and I'm exhausted, what a ride!

 

very impressive driver/car.
Do you have more details on the driver and car?
He literally seems to be passing everyone and I never see anyone even close to gaining on him in the rear view mirror unless he hits traffic.
I understand your premise but this is a vintage racing organization.
How would that car do against a C7 set up the same way?

 

Cool video - thanks for sharing.

I may be wrong here, but I would assume for it's time (say 1968-1972 era) a C3 small block would have been a top rate handler as compared to all other American cars that:

1. Had poor front/rear weight distribution
2. Did not have rear independent suspension
3. Did not have 4 wheel disc brakes.
4. Were, in many cases, heavier.

Reading some of the magazine articles of the time backs this up as well. The issue is that modern suspension advances have passed by what was a good setup for it's time.
Adding poly bushings and rear sway bar (if it's not too big as compared to the front) would probably close this gap somewhat, but I would assume frame advances can't be made
up in a stock setup. I am by no means an expert of any kind, so just my 2 cents...

 

Only had time to watch half of the video, but I enjoyed it. I always enjoy seeing a guy rowing a four speed, rather than flicking one of those limp wristed paddle shifters.

Regarding the 20-30k$ price of an updated chassis setup, that only applies if you update your car via a checkbook or credit card. I have a C4/coilover suspension under my '69, and my cash outlay was only about a tenth of those numbers. If you're willing/able to do the work yourself, the price drops substantially.

 

I would think a c7 prepared the same would dominate. I have seen these cars up against C4s and C5s and have no problems. I like how he sucks up the Porsches

 

I have to say I really love the vintage racecar stuff, just as much as the "pro-touring" and resto-mods. I used to go to Road America to see the KIC with a buddy who raced a Can-Am car. It was always cool to take a peek at the corvettes in the pits to see what kind of tricks and rule bending they did to remain (mostly!!) class legal, but competitive. The vintage races are something you have to experience in person!

Using stock "style" stuff can net you a very respectable car on the track. Will it be easy? Will you have a car that can double duty as a street car? No, and the whole street car thing is subjective. The car community as a whole loves to spend money on the latest and greatest. I think thats pretty obvious considering aftermarket car parts are a multi billion dollar industry. Are all of these parts better than the stock stuff? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Is it easier for average joe with regular hand tools to put on a set of tubular control arms with offset shafts and poly/delrin/solid bushings in compared to pressing aftermarket bushings and shafts into a set of 50 year old control arms? Probably!
There are a few companies out there that have redesigned some of the geometry using the stock frame to be more balanced for both street and track performance. Wheel rates, camber curves, steering geometry, etc... Most of these cars are still street driven cars, mine included. Riding around on 600+ lb springs does not make for a "hop in and get ice cream" kind of car IMO.
Everyone has an opinion about what a track car is, and what a street car is. Thats why there are different trains of though on how to go about modifying these cars. As long as the end user is out driving their vette and having a good time, it doesnt matter what parts they used.

FWIW my street/track '69 has 375lb front springs thanks to a modern suspension design

 

Great Video! I would love to try that someday. Have to love the beating that L88 takes! Is there a list of engine specs/ rules anywhere? I would love to know what the valvetrain modifactions allowed are. Stud girdle? Shaft Rockers?

Just badass driving and loved how he moved up in the field how the cars became more troublesome to pass. A few of those Vettes appeared to out hp him! Would love to have seen him fight it out with the cobra, but loved the come from behind seek and destroy. Thank You for posting this!!

 

Well this video for me shows different things.

First the passing / faster lap times has less to do with suspension and more due to HP.

But just to compare C3 vs C6 / C7 cars at my local track the C3 needs 3 things / upgrades.

compared to the stock setup.
1. wider tires 15" to 18" better rubber
2. much more aggressive track alignment
3. more horse power.
4. and lastly the drivers skill. Seen many people show c3 vs c6/c7 at a track but the C3 seems faster only for 1 reason. The C7 driver sucks.

Here is my view.
I have been running a 78 C3 / 2010 GS C6 at my local track for years. Using the same tire Nitto NT01 C3 Best lap 1:30.6 Sec vs C6 1:29.6.

But here is how the C3 changed over time. I started at the track with the factory car configuration with suspension rebuild.

C3 in factory setup (VB&P Street Slalom suspension) was a 1:52 Sec lap car.
Added a ZZ383 1:40 Sec lap car.
Added 6 Speed 1:38 Sec lap car.
Added 18" wheels factory width 1:36 Sec lap car.
Added wider track tires NT01 1:30.6 Sec lap car.

2 Things mainly added to Faster laps
1. HP
2. Tires

Now the suspension isn't 100% stock but 100% stock design. Front control arms are SPC units so I can get 6 degree caster and -3.2 degree camber. Poly bushings everywhere.

So as shown in the video the stock suspension setup can do very well when you add HP & better tires.

For me the C6 is much easier to drive fast vs the C3 in 2 main areas. Steering feel & Brakes and ABS brakes allows you to be much more aggressive braking.

So guys don't be afraid to take your C3 to the track and enjoy.

 

I agree with Cagotzmann that the C3 basic suspension platform is really quite decent for occasional track duty with some modifications but the brakes with Steel calipers, although 4 piston fixed, will overheat fairly quickly under heavy use along with crap 15 inch tires that have zero grip, even for street use. I used to race formula cars pretty often in the 90's and early 2000's but decided to dial it back with a young family to raise.

Although a founding member of Club Motorsports that opened for its first full year in 2018, I have not brought either my 78 L-82 355 4 speed or my 10 C6Z06 with 5,200 miles to the track yet but will this year for sure, assuming, My corona, does not foil those plans.

I, of course, have zero hesitation about the 10C6Z06 on the track (The Z06 is a race car that is street legal and quite a machine-period with the LS7) but the 78 with the 4 speed makes me pause. Even with the stock SS calipers and rotors, I know I could do a couple of hot laps but that 4 speed with 3.70 gears would have the 355 L-82 which now makes 383 like power with concentrated mid range TQ, screaming on the track, all the time. I think I would be more inclined to track the 78 with 383 crate motor (who cares) but not with the numbers matching L-82 block.

I have been tinkering/changing/upgrading the suspension/steering on the 78 L-82 4 speed OEM gymkhana car now for about 35+ years. Here is what I have done to make it a super street car and occasional track car IF I replace the 4 speed with a 5/6 speed:

​​​​​​Copied from a previous post a while back about mods to my 78:

I have a 78 L-82 4 speed car with the gymkhana sport suspension (67,000 miles) that I have owned for 34 years and I have tinkered with the suspension one part at a time over all those years to achieve the perfect balance of superb handling, steering response and a firm but not harsh ride. Not knowing if you have a base suspension (most likely since most did not have the sport suspension from the factory) or the sport suspension, below is what you need for truly sportscar handling with a great ride for your 78:

Front:
550 lbs front coil springs/1 inch lower than stock-$100
1 1/8 inch solid front sway bar (OEM Bar size)-$200
poly upper and lower control arm bushings-$50
Bilstein HD shocks-$150
Front Spreader Bar-$100
Custom blueprinted/rebuilt OEM steering box- GTR 1999-Gary Ramadei-$300
This modification will make your OEM box about as good as it gets with the OEM steering and very close to a borgeson.....not quite but close

Rear:
360 monospring-$300
Bilstein Sport shocks-$150
OEM Style Rear Sway bar (not the aftermarket type bars. I highly discourage NON OEM/GM style rear sway bars)-7/16 or 9/16 or 3/4 inch (I have this one replacing the stock 7/16 inch bar)-$200
Competition adjustable strut rods with heim joint ends-$200

Total Cost $1750

This suspension will get you a FAR SUPERIOR suspension than what came on the car when it was new, X3 if the car had a base suspension from the factory. You will need to add 17/18 inch rims and tires (ZR rated only W/Y sub rating) later to maximize the superior suspension setup. I have ultra high performance summer only tires Front-255/45/17 ZR and rears 255/50/17 ZR's.

With all that said, I do know that my 78 L-82 is much more difficult to drive really fast than my C6Z06, no comparison! I don't think my 78 L-82 355 would be anywhere near the same lap times as my 10C6Z06 for a number of reasons but mostly the Z's 505 NET HP and about 3,100 lbs weight, versus the C3's power to weight or even other C 6's with less Net HP and an additional 3-400lbs. DO NOT CHANGE THE IRS Suspension of the C3 for a solid axle..it will destroy the handling advantage the C3 had over most cars at that time.

The Z06's only mods are Doug Rippie Specially valved Bilstein Sports all around ( what a difference over the stock shocks...you need to make this change on your C6 if you have not already) AND a C6 ZR1 rear sway bar in place of the stock Z06 rear bar (dials out some of the inherent understeer of my Z06) which makes my car feel much more balanced at the limit

 

WOW...all I've done on my L82 is a slightly upgraded complete rear suspension and it's far and beyond most cars I've driven. This video has set my mind afire!! Great, I was already ***** deep into building a pro street big block Vega and a redneck 4wd FE f100 short box, and now I'm sticking my spare big block into my running SBC Vette. Thanks, OP, I didn't need the crack!

But, seriously, and despite my new found issues, what an outstanding video. I'm looking forward to the Bowling Green track opening this year..

 

What's the relative weights on your two cars?

 

78 is 3542 the 2010 C6 is 3578lbs full tank

 

I do find it interesting (and satisfying as I live in Europe) that he easily dusts the Porsches.

 

Wow...I am surprised that both your 78 and C6 GS are both that heavy, especially for the C6 at almost 3,600 lbs with a full tank (I just noticed the gas tank was full) .

I am assuming that your ZZ383 has anywhere from 425-450 Gross HP, depending on the year of that engine, which would be it in the 375-390 Net HP range versus the 435 NET HP of the C6 GS? Looks like the 40-45 Net HP advantage with the more modern suspension of the C6GS is good for about 1 sec over the 78. Numbers make sense and definitely add up.

I am wondering if you have tried to shave more weight off the 78 since you have aluminum heads, aluminum intake, no AIR pump and hardware, no AC, I assume, composite rear spring, aluminum wilwood calipers, and other savings but still that heavy? Maybe lighter seats than the OEM 78's? Any thing else to save some weight?

I figured the C6GS at about 3,500 lbs (with a few gallons of gas) with the heavier steel engine cradle, steel frame, and no carbon fiber fender parts versus the C6Z06 3,080 lbs (1LZ) and 3125 lbs for the C6Z06 (2LZ). I guess all those weight saving measures on the Z06 really do conserve a bunch of mass.....

 

My 69' 427/400 had 255/60/15 BFG's and Bilsteins all the way around with a steel rear spring and rode like a Caddy.......the 66' in the Avatar had KYB's and a composite rear spring with Poly sway bar mounts with 215/70/15 BFG's and rode very well but like to "rodeo" over long undulated dips in the road......never figured that one out......wasn't terrible, but it was there......
My 72' has VB&P Monoleaf kit front and rear with old but perfect Carrera shocks and 40 series Nitto's on it....it rides and handles awesome.....
Shocks are the key in my opinion.......as well as the alignment on the rear......

Jebby

 

Man, I'd love to see you take some mass out of the '78, and see how your lap times change.

 

We don't build old cars because we want them to handle better than new cars. We build old cars because we like old cars. We build old cars to keep our hands and minds busy. We build old cars because we'd rather spend $500 per month on parts than $500 per month on a car payment. I sold a late model Boss 302 that did most things as good as my C3 and many things better. It was boring. I'm not bored any more.