A really really strange oil behaviour
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 177
Likes: 17
From: Turin Italy
A really really strange oil behaviour
My 383 rebuild has about 1000km (about 620miles), and in the last days i felt a strange ticking noise comung from the inside of the engine, exactly from the left. It wasn't a preignition noise but a mechanical sound. So I took off the left valve cover and I found this:
I checked the lash of the involved pushrod and was good.
Could be faulty the lifter (these are new edelbrock lifters that i got with the new cam)?
Despite the problem, the engine is running very good.
Thank you!
I checked the lash of the involved pushrod and was good.
Could be faulty the lifter (these are new edelbrock lifters that i got with the new cam)?
Despite the problem, the engine is running very good.
Thank you!
Last edited by oVoSanto; May 17, 2020 at 07:05 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,167
From: Northern Wisconsin
I did a little searching on this and found some info on Pontiac engines saying that the oil hole in the rocker shaft is supposed to be pointing downward, not upward. If it points upward, too much oil will be sent to the rocker arm. Not sure if this applies to your engine, but should be pretty easy to check.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 177
Likes: 17
From: Turin Italy
I did a little searching on this and found some info on Pontiac engines saying that the oil hole in the rocker shaft is supposed to be pointing downward, not upward. If it points upward, too much oil will be sent to the rocker arm. Not sure if this applies to your engine, but should be pretty easy to check.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,167
From: Northern Wisconsin
I did see mention of the possibility of a pushrod being upside down, so, yes, you could check that too, but the Pontiac info that I saw related to the hole in the rocker arm shaft.
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
Pushrod is interchangeable end to end. Chevy rockers can only be installed one way and the oil goes nowhere near the shaft.....the shaft is oiled by the drip out of the pushrod and through the hole in the rocker arm. I have bad news......that is 100% a bad lifter check valve. The check valve holds oil in the lifter when it begins to push the valve open. This one isn't and that is why you have an oil flood as well as a tick....the lifter is bleeding off through the check valve. This is also causing the other lifters to not push oil up top as they should....as you can see from the video as all of the oil is coming out of that lifter alone.....bleeding off the pressure.
It can be changed out rather easy....but the intake will have to be pulled. You will need to lash that valve and do another break-in procedure on it to be safe.
Wish I had better news on this one.
Jebby
It can be changed out rather easy....but the intake will have to be pulled. You will need to lash that valve and do another break-in procedure on it to be safe.
Wish I had better news on this one.
Jebby
Last edited by Jebbysan; May 17, 2020 at 10:13 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
They sell and you can buy just one lifter to correct the problem. Then a few months from now, who is to say another lifter doesn't go south?
Having said that, and the fact the Intake Manifold has to come off anyway, and the cost of a set of lifters, I think a good decision would be to swap them all.
You can install new lifters on a used cam with no problems. Like Jebby said, use Break-in lube and it will be fine.
Myself, I would be leery of using that brand lifters again. But that's just me.
And, are you using "one piece" pushrods? Well worth the money.
Having said that, and the fact the Intake Manifold has to come off anyway, and the cost of a set of lifters, I think a good decision would be to swap them all.
You can install new lifters on a used cam with no problems. Like Jebby said, use Break-in lube and it will be fine.
Myself, I would be leery of using that brand lifters again. But that's just me.
And, are you using "one piece" pushrods? Well worth the money.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; May 17, 2020 at 11:16 AM.
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
They sell and you can buy just one lifter to correct the problem. Then a few months from now, who is to say another lifter doesn't go south?
Having said that, and the fact the Intake Manifold has to come off anyway, and the cost of a set of lifters, I think a good decision would be to swap them all.
You can install new lifters on a used cam with no problems. Like Jebby said, use Break-in lube and it will be fine.
Myself, I would be leery of using that brand lifters again. But that's just me.
And, are you using "one piece" pushrods? Well worth the money.
Having said that, and the fact the Intake Manifold has to come off anyway, and the cost of a set of lifters, I think a good decision would be to swap them all.
You can install new lifters on a used cam with no problems. Like Jebby said, use Break-in lube and it will be fine.
Myself, I would be leery of using that brand lifters again. But that's just me.
And, are you using "one piece" pushrods? Well worth the money.
FYI....after giving it some thought......you could buy a new lifter, pull the collapsed one out and swtich the guts out.......it has a clip, reciever, check valve and spring at the bottom....the check valve looks like a small metal disc with a hole in it. Make sure you do this in a confined space a **** has known to fly to sock heaven when pulling a lifter apart. This approach would save you from having to break-in another lifter.....but only if the inside of the lifter bore is spec.
Jebby
Last edited by Jebbysan; May 17, 2020 at 12:26 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
Jebby,
Go back and look at the video. Play it a couple more times. There is something else going on here.
Note the stream of bubbles coming off of number one Intake spring pocket.
I get the flood of oil. But what's up with the air bubbles?
H-m-m-m-m-m-
Go back and look at the video. Play it a couple more times. There is something else going on here.
Note the stream of bubbles coming off of number one Intake spring pocket.
I get the flood of oil. But what's up with the air bubbles?
H-m-m-m-m-m-
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Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 177
Likes: 17
From: Turin Italy
Ok, is not a problem to change the lifter, it's in warranty, I could have a replace. I'm not worried about the other 15, they are all new.
I think that is not safe to run the engine with this anomaly,right?
@HeadsU.P. I think that the bubbles are an emulsion of oil with air due to the movement of the valve spring. Like an egg mixer
I think that is not safe to run the engine with this anomaly,right?
@HeadsU.P. I think that the bubbles are an emulsion of oil with air due to the movement of the valve spring. Like an egg mixer
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
Meh! Not buying that. The other 7 are not doing it. You say you are not worried about the other 15 lifters, they are new. So was the one that failed.
I have a hunch what it is, but would rather think on it. What can you tell us about the heads? New? Used? Appear to be Aluminum.
Were they machined for larger valve springs?
And no, do not run the engine until you get this figured out. You could do more damage.
I have a hunch what it is, but would rather think on it. What can you tell us about the heads? New? Used? Appear to be Aluminum.
Were they machined for larger valve springs?
And no, do not run the engine until you get this figured out. You could do more damage.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; May 17, 2020 at 05:50 PM.
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
Meh! Not buying that. The other 7 are not doing it. You say you are not worried about the other 15 lifters, they are new. So was the one that failed.
I have a hunch what it is, but would rather think on it. What can you tell us about the heads? New? Used? Appear to be Aluminum.
Were they machined for larger valve springs?
And no, do not run the engine until you get this figured out. You could do more damage.
I have a hunch what it is, but would rather think on it. What can you tell us about the heads? New? Used? Appear to be Aluminum.
Were they machined for larger valve springs?
And no, do not run the engine until you get this figured out. You could do more damage.
Fix and replace the lifter and move on....if anything else comes to light, replace the engine under warranty....
Personally....if the other lifters have not failed in 600 miles....they are not going to.....
And I would fix the lifter if it were mine and in this garage.....punt and move on.....but that’s just me.
Jebby
Last edited by Jebbysan; May 17, 2020 at 06:11 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
I can now reason why you don't want to replace 16 lifters, just one. According to Summit Racing, a single lifter is $3. A good set runs $70- $100 + shpg.
I don't know how shipping cost are to Italy, but if were mine I guess I would do the same thing, one lifter.
But if another fails, swap them all out.
I don't know how shipping cost are to Italy, but if were mine I guess I would do the same thing, one lifter.
But if another fails, swap them all out.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; May 17, 2020 at 06:14 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
Jebby,
So now, somebody needs to figure out what is producing the bubbles. How is air coming out of the head under the spring?
I have seen where poor machine shops run the valve spring pocket cutter too deep and just nick the water jacket. If this is the case, there should be an exchange between coolant and oil.
oVoSanto,
Take a peek under the radiator cap. Look for oily residue.
So now, somebody needs to figure out what is producing the bubbles. How is air coming out of the head under the spring?
I have seen where poor machine shops run the valve spring pocket cutter too deep and just nick the water jacket. If this is the case, there should be an exchange between coolant and oil.
oVoSanto,
Take a peek under the radiator cap. Look for oily residue.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,499
Likes: 1,508
From: Little Rock AR
The volume of oil is significant. I would replace the lifter.
There might be more to it but the oil volume is first. The other valves are not bubbling but they dont have the extra oil to cause the bubbling either.
There might be more to it but the oil volume is first. The other valves are not bubbling but they dont have the extra oil to cause the bubbling either.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
There is only one thing that I know of that makes a bubble. Air.
That's not normal. Where is it coming from? They are not coming from the pushrod, then under the spring.
There is a deluge of oil flowing front to back, but bubbles are underneath that.
Very strange indeed.
That's not normal. Where is it coming from? They are not coming from the pushrod, then under the spring.
There is a deluge of oil flowing front to back, but bubbles are underneath that.
Very strange indeed.
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
What’s Head U.P. Is stating is sound....and I agree to a point as always....but that is the intake valve of that cylinder....pull the plug and see if it is oil fouled....if not, then not much to worry about.....
I have seen pockets milled too deep....but that is directly under the intake port and it will suck oil in before it bubbles if there is an anamoly.
Jebby
I have seen pockets milled too deep....but that is directly under the intake port and it will suck oil in before it bubbles if there is an anamoly.
Jebby
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
I hope I am wrong, but I have a bad feeling that a brand new lifter replacement is not going to make the bubbles go away.
I have never seen anything like that.
So Mr. oVoSanto,
You need one lifter.
Break-in lube
Valve Cover gaskets
Intake manifold gaskets
The Right Stuff sealant.
You are getting off cheap. At this point.
I have never seen anything like that.
So Mr. oVoSanto,
You need one lifter.
Break-in lube
Valve Cover gaskets
Intake manifold gaskets
The Right Stuff sealant.
You are getting off cheap. At this point.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; May 17, 2020 at 06:52 PM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 177
Likes: 17
From: Turin Italy
Some more infos:
- I purged the water just some weeks ago because I had to change the temperature sender. There weren't signs of oil. There is no water consumption.
- the heads are brand new procomp.
- I checked the spark plugs about 300miles ago and no one was oil fouled BUT today, I will check again more accurately.
About the shopping list, this breakin lube is good?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-m-10012
I will use it to lubricate the new parts and the remaining quantity should be used as additive in the engine oli, right?
I've selected this lifter (I will buy all 16 lifters).
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...make/chevrolet
In terms of quality, there is a lot of difference between the summit ones and the Edelbrock's?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/e...make/chevrolet
These are totally crap?
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Roller-Link-...k/313060004237
This forum is a well of science! Thank you all!
- I purged the water just some weeks ago because I had to change the temperature sender. There weren't signs of oil. There is no water consumption.
- the heads are brand new procomp.
- I checked the spark plugs about 300miles ago and no one was oil fouled BUT today, I will check again more accurately.
About the shopping list, this breakin lube is good?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-m-10012
I will use it to lubricate the new parts and the remaining quantity should be used as additive in the engine oli, right?
I've selected this lifter (I will buy all 16 lifters).
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...make/chevrolet
In terms of quality, there is a lot of difference between the summit ones and the Edelbrock's?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/e...make/chevrolet
These are totally crap?
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Roller-Link-...k/313060004237
This forum is a well of science! Thank you all!
Last edited by oVoSanto; May 18, 2020 at 03:03 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
Glad to see Summit ships to Europe.
1. Yes that lube will work just fine.
2. That lifter will work. Seems kind of cheap. $3 X 16 = $48 a set. Better ones are $70- $90.
3. See number 2.
4. You can not install roller lifters on a flat tappet cam. Will not work. The cam lobes are completely different, so that question is out of the picture.
I guess the real question is about quality. Do you trust Eddy lifters enough to buy a complete set (again)? Should you buy Summits at half the cost?
Should you buy a quality set? Who makes the lifters for Summit? For Edelbrock?
1. Yes that lube will work just fine.
2. That lifter will work. Seems kind of cheap. $3 X 16 = $48 a set. Better ones are $70- $90.
3. See number 2.
4. You can not install roller lifters on a flat tappet cam. Will not work. The cam lobes are completely different, so that question is out of the picture.
I guess the real question is about quality. Do you trust Eddy lifters enough to buy a complete set (again)? Should you buy Summits at half the cost?
Should you buy a quality set? Who makes the lifters for Summit? For Edelbrock?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,499
Likes: 1,508
From: Little Rock AR
That lube is not for lifters. I strongly advise molybdenum disulfide based grease specifically designed for flat tappet lifter break in. Fix the lifter and do another complete break in procedure just like you would for a fresh cam.
The lifter in question seems to have failed internally. The rest are not suspect at this time. Lifter failures of this mode are very rare. Much more common to see the lifter bottoms fail and wipe out the cam. If you change all the lifters you have 15 additional unrequired opportunities to wipe out the cam. If you replace just the one lifter, your odds are greatly improved. You can buy a single lifter to make the repair.
The lifter in question seems to have failed internally. The rest are not suspect at this time. Lifter failures of this mode are very rare. Much more common to see the lifter bottoms fail and wipe out the cam. If you change all the lifters you have 15 additional unrequired opportunities to wipe out the cam. If you replace just the one lifter, your odds are greatly improved. You can buy a single lifter to make the repair.
