Duh. I think the conversation went downhill from your end first.

Re: Cute DEP

If I was as convinced of my direction as you are again, Build the dang thing!

If you are going to spend 10K on a motor "I already have plans for my '72 and it's too late in the game to change them. Why not satisfiy your taste for 302's and save yourself all of the grief of realizing you screwed yourself. I wouldn't let "PLANS" stop me from putting in my beloved 302.

"It's obvious that we are firmly entrenched in our views...no need to get nasty about it."

It's obvious I have annoyed you :lol:

I never said I was smarter than the rest of you. I simply have a different point of view than you have. You don't agree with it and I accept and understand that. If you foot the bill for a 302 Z-28 and a Cheetah kit car, I'd be more than happy to build it. I already have plans for my '72 and it's too late in the game to change them. It's obvious that we are firmly entrenched in our views...no need to get nasty about it.

Dep
Beep beep...vroooom :troll

DEP, I merely responded to your answers. Have a good day and good luck on your up coming 302 in your '72. You know, I'm sure, that Z/28 is not a designation of a Camaro but the engine itself, so I guess you will run a "My Z/28" specialized license tag on it too......................:yesnod:

JIM :seeya

 

Actually, the Z28 designation was for the package, not just the engine. The engine itself was designated "DZ" (Which would still be cool on your license plate to those that know). Chevy "Z" packages, such as Z51, Z52, Z06, etc., typicallly included suspension, wheel/tire, brake, and trim differences. In many cases, the "Z" package didn't have a different engine. The original `67 Z28's weren't badged as such. Instead, they had 302 emblems where other Camaros would have had 327, 350, or 396 emblems.

I'm not sure of the exact number I think only 700 Z28's were built in `67 as that was all that was needed to make them "production" cars for racing purposes. The demand for them was so great that they upped production by a few zillion percent in subsequent years. Again, I'm not certain of the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure that in `69 more Camaros were sold with the Z28 package than were Corvettes.

 

I AM convinced that the 302 has untapped potential, especially with the advancements made in parts since it's original design. I am also convinced that YOU ALL have convinced yourselves that the Roadrunner engines are the ONLY way to experience small block power. That is a shame. You really are missing out. I am also a bit saddened to see that the debate with PROSOUTH is with a fellow law enforcement officer. I hope you treat the public better than you treated me. You are NOT always right, no matter what you may think. I accept that, but you seem to want to beat a dead horse. Sorry, but this retired horse is DONE with this thread.

You do not annoy me PROSOUTH...you depress me. Closed minds that refuse to accept the possibility of alternatives tend to do that with me. Just because YOU had a bad experience with a Z/28 block, does not mean the motor is bad. It just means you weren't happy with it's performance.

There will be no upcoming 302 for me. Like I said...previous commitments are already in place for a big block crate motor. These commitments involve a considerable sum of money that has already been spent and I have NO intentions of losing it. However, I will leave you with one statistic to mull over while you are struggling to get horsepower or torque or whatever you are in search of:

In 1968 the Traco engines put out varying horsepower in different stages of tune, but I have seen the following numbers: 441.5 @ 7,400, 419.5 @ 6,800, and 458 @ 7,100.

You might try using those numbers as goals to exceed...if you can.

Dep


[Modified by Dep, 10:53 PM 12/15/2002]

 

:rolleyes:

Ok, time to 'fess up. This has all been a joke, right?

 

"I'm not sure of the exact number I think only 700 Z28's were built in `67 as that was all that was needed to make them "production" cars for racing purposes. "Actually, the Z28 designation was for the package, not just the engine. The engine itself was designated "DZ"

If I remember corectly and I may not be, but the first 700 were called "Little Stinkers" by Chevrolet. The engine in them was designated as option Z28. There was no Z/28 emblem or other designation on the car. My friend had one and his was a Red RS with a black vynal top, fold down back seat, tilt wheel, hide away lights, tach & gages. It had no rear spoiler or Z/28 emblems on it. The front fender did have 302 in the nose stripe.

The Z/28 was so well recieved that then it was turned into a package and marketed as such. I have not reserched this and speak only from memory. I also want to think that the DZ designation was for the '69 engine or maybe the '68 & '69 after it went to the large journal crank. If you find out for sure,let me know. JIM

 

DEP, I am sure that you are familiar with “The Use of Force” I have been trained to meet aggression with one level higher of response. I’m sorry it has carried over into this conversation.

However it seems that you were the aggressive one, the debate went downhill from your end of the conversation, not mine.

As for my treatment of the public. I treat them with much more respect than I receive. I only resort to the use of force (whatever level) when I realize the situation has gone beyond reproach. I have many, many more letters of commendation from citizens in my folder than complaints.

I am sorry for your mistreatment since you have come to this board. It seems that it is you that has the problem of interaction with others. I seem to get along fairly well with this group. I must confess that I have read other post you participated in and may have fore knowledge of your demeanor. If I remember correctly you commended me for treating you better than most had here earlier in this thread. At that time I had no reason to treat you any other way. It was not my intention for this thread to degrade into this pissing contest.

I am glad that I do not annoy you and sorry that I depress you. One thing I can assure you Sir is of my open mind. I process information and take its content to make my decisions. I am not always right and do have the ability to concede upon my discovery of error and comply with the correct direction. In this decision however, I will not concede.

It is you Sir that have beat the dead horse. I have seen no one here come to your rescue or rally to support your theory. I had merely answered your questions or responded to your statements with rational response until you got “cute”.

I will be changing my Profile come January 1,2003. I too have spent my time in Law Enforcement and will be moving to another career. Then you won’t have to worry about my treatment / mistreatment of the public any further.

I have met many and made several friends on this FORUM, I have shared ideas and sold, swapped or given away several parts to many forum members. All I hope were as satisfied as they stated.

So if you have chosen not to debate further with me so be it, I believe it is iin our best interest to end this debate and maybe sometime in the future we can be on the same side with better results another day. JIM :seeya

 

What Smokey was saying was not to spend a lot of money on non standard parts to build a little different C.I.

There is nothing oddball about a Chevy 400 SB crank- std. in 400s! They are easily available aftermarket as well !

There is nothing oddball about using different cranks & blocks to get different displacements! The factory has been doing this a long time. There are 3 possibilities for about 300 C.I. that the factory has used - 302, 307 & 305.

The history of the SB has been one of ever increasing displacement. Larger C.I. gives more TQ. The only reason the 302 was used in the Z-28 was that the racing rules did not allow destroking for the C.I. limit. As soon as that changed, Chevy installed the 350.
For a high perf. about 300 C.I., then the one to use is 302.
There is no question that the 302 was a nice engine for about 300 C.I.
Ran a 306 (302 bored- not stock) & beat 350s & even BBs. Even though I don't believe in giving out any info. on my cars, did paint 306 in small gold letters on the fenders of the black car. :cool:

When gas milage entered the design para. in a major way, then the issue was the largest C.I. consistant w/ good gas milage. Chevy decided on 350. The smaller the engine the better potential for gas milage. Note that the 305 was used in many other GM cars which was built because the 350 stroke (3.48) gave more TQ than the 283 stroke (3.0) in the 302. Note that there was also the 307 that could have been used.

A friend of mine was living & working in England when the LT5 was being developed by Lotus. He heard that the Corvette was getting a "monster engine"!
Only in the US (& Canada) is 5.7 L 350 C.I. a small block.

:cool:

 

I prefer BBs !!!


What about a BB cleverly disguised as a SB !!!

:cool:

That's why the 383 (+) is popular !

 

SB 302's are just a different animal. For most of us it just makes more sense to build a 350, mainly because of the cost factor. Heck, if you want to build a really strong 302, your going to have to change brands :D. Personally, I'd buy or build an alloy BB if the costs were not a factor.

(flame retardant suit on now...)

Hans


[Modified by Wrencher, 11:27 AM 12/16/2002]