QUOTE:
Around 600hp @ 11:1 compression on pump gas

I have two questions. Not doubting your recipe, but...

#1 11:1 compression on pump gas.... I question how you would get that compression and be able to use pump gas. Things would get VERY hot VERY quickly I would think. New Vettes can use 10-1 by using aluminum block and heads to dissipate the heat. And would it not ping like crazy unless you had some kind of computer to automatically retard it when necessary? I would think 11-1 compression would mandate 104 octane gas for sure.

#2 Around 600hp...at what RPM and for how long at that RPM?

Dep


[Modified by Dep, 12:53 PM 12/15/2002]

 

DEP, the next tiime I see John Force I'll pass this information along to him. He's going to be POed when he finds out about all of the thousands he's wasted on that Mountain Motor................. :yesnod:

If I used a 302 it would have to be in a car such as a little street roadster that didn't weigh much over 2K. Then the need for torque and the ability to launch the extra 15 hundred pounds we are carrying wouldn't be necessary. Yes, then the 302 would do the job very well in this aspect.

But DEP you were consistantly saying that the 302 was the best engine ever made and that it fit our application in mostly the street/strip Corvettes here. Even the all out competition Corvettes here would not benefit from the 302 over a 350/383/406.

We are not a light weight vehicle that benefits from a Low Torque / HI RPM engine. The 302 has a very limited application and even when it was being used it was ONLYto meet the obligation of a Class C.I. Requirement.

Hi reving motors are great! It's just that the bigger ones do more with it.

JIM :seeya

 

11:1 compression can be run on the street with the correct cam and aluminum heads. Larger duration cams bleed off cylinder pressure at lower rpm's and today’s efficient combustion chamber technology needs less total timing to make the same amount of power as older heads. With a set of AFR 210's and the cam specs listed above with 11:1 you should have 600HP+ @ 6500 an 500+ ft-lbs @ 5300 add that to a close ratio 4 speed or TKO and have some fun. 350 Crazy's way... :crazy:

 

So, if I put a smaller crank in my 406, and add 6 degrees of duration to the roller cam, I will make 150+ hp more? I wish! ;) I already have fully ported heads and 11:1 compression. A 302 at 600+ hp is at 2+ hp per cubic inch, and that's SB2.2 or 18 degree small block territory (marginally), not AFR 210 territory.

I just can't see it happening.

-Joe

 

Sorry Flareside, but not knowing your combo I'm at a disadvantage. My buddy's 406 is running the CNC AFR's with 11:1 CBC2 coated pistons, Roller cam 258/268, Dominator mounted to a Brodix HPV intake and pulls 654HP @ 6700 rpm's on the Superflow. It's run in a ProStreet 69 Camaro w/ a glide and 4000 stall. 600hp with this 352ci combo can be and has been done. It's all about where you want the Horsepower and at what RPM. :crazy: :cheers:

 

Hi Dep
I think you have some of Silvervetteman's comments attributed to me as far as no torque, low octance etc. I was only trying to point out that if you wanted to build a fast revving engine the 4.155X3.23 combo is superior due to the large bore allowing for more airflow from good flowing heads. Now as far as costs go you could put this combo together for around $10,000 with used NASCAR parts your biggest expense being cylinder heads, there are a number of vendors for these items such as JR Motorsports as an example a used cranks are $1000 as opposed to $2500 new the problem with it is that it's not really off the shelf stuff.
:cheers:
Ken

 

QUOTE..One more tidbit. The NASCAR comment. You are quite right about the 358 making tons of horsepower and living at 8-9000 RPMs. It's an amazing motor. But you left off one little item. It's COST. Anyone fantasizing in high school (I couldn't draw so I dreamed) or on this board of getting their crate engine to reach and STAY at 8-9000 RPM

NASCAR engines do this TODAY and it is totally amazing but twenty five years ago? NO way.... The ONLY thing that makes that happen is called "cubic dollars"
:iagree: :lol: :lol:

 

I would not run a 302 in my C3 even if I rec'd it as a gift.

They were only built to comply with the rules of the race sanctioning body the Z/28's were running. If they had been a good idea for the Vette, Duntov would have moved heaven and earth to put them there. He didn't so much as lift a finger.

 

Stingray, I've seen engines like that, but I was specifically referring to the 302 combo being debated here. I just can't see 600+ (or even 550) from these components.

How much more hp would that pro street camaro make with a 302 sized stroke? I believe it would lose hp and torque across its usable rpm range, but according to this thread that's not the case.

Mainly, I was trying to bring some sense to this discussion. I don't think everyone should be encouraging ZD75blue to build an engine that will, most likely, not live up to his expectations. A 9k rpm street car engine isn't practical. Even the guys with the deepest pockets don't go there. There is a world of difference between 450hp at 6800 and 600hp at 9000 :crazy: That said, this is an interesting discussion and I'm enjoying it :cheers:


Oh, my 406: 406 small block

-Joe



[Modified by Flareside, 4:56 PM 12/15/2002]

 

Awww geez PROSOUTH...just when I was enjoying the conversation you went goofey on me :(
John Force doesn't even use a Chevy engine in that stretched Mustang Mustang he drives. ALL funny cars and rails are using custom built hemis with blower and injectors. That has about as much to do with our discussion of small blocks as the man in the moon in a dune buggy :crazy:

Quote:
"If I used a 302 it would have to be in a car such as a little street roadster that didn't weigh much over 2K."

So you are saying that your current Vette is a heavy pig that can't be properly powered by a small block. Not even one rodded to 500 horsepower.
My my...do you have solid steel tires or what??? I don't think the factory Camaros were all that light and they did pretty good jobs of getting a stock Z-28 into the high 13s. C'mon...are you that anti-small cubic inches that you are willing to insult Corvette owners by calling their cars heavy pigs?!?!?!
Well...I suppose some years they did get a bit obese.
A '72 weighs 3215 pounds. The 1962 Vette weighed 2905 pounds.
The Camaro most likely weighed MORE than either of those two versions.
A little street rod with less than 2000 pounds weight would probably NEVER get traction with a built 302. The tires would just sit there and spin. IS THAT your goal???

"But DEP you were consistantly saying that the 302 was the best engine ever made"

Bite your tongue...Best SMALL BLOCK ever made. I WILL make an exception for the distant relatives of the ZR-1 and Z06. But they are space age technology and not really comparable to the 302. For best ENGINE ever made, I reserve that spot for the all aluminum ZL-1.

"and that it fit our application in mostly the street/strip Corvettes here"

It does. But YOU have to adapt to IT'S performance and quirks. No air conditioning. No excess weight. No power-robbing options. And you will have to get off your cans and do maintenance more often that the roller-motored engines. Plus you'll have to put out some effort to look for high octane gas.
I didn't mean you could bolt it into a late '70s luxury Vette with all the luxury crap and expect to do wheelstands.

"Even the all out competition Corvettes here would not benefit from the 302 over a 350/383/406."

Another blanket statement that is YET to be proven. You are guessing on that one. If you bolted Schmucker's Dad's engine into a 1972 Vette, I think you would see some pretty spectacular performance. It all depends on what you plan on DOING with your Vette. And how radical you are willing to put up with for street use. Guys used to drive full blast 426 Stage 3 wedges with solid lifters and dual quads on the street back in the 60s. They were ONLY fun to drive IF you could APPRECIATE their unique abilities. Ditto for 426 hemis and
L88 etc, etc, etc. A 302 race engine would NOT be all that terrible to drive on the street. It just wouldn't be the same as a tamer Roadrunner-sized engine ;)

"We are not a light weight vehicle that benefits from a Low Torque / HI RPM engine."

HUH????? You are saying that the Corvette is HEAVY???????? Heavier than a steel bodied Camaro???


"The 302 has a very limited application and even when it was being used it was ONLYto meet the obligation of a Class C.I. Requirement.

I am seeing this in just about everyone's post. I GET IT!!!! I UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WERE MADE. I WAS ALIVE BACK THEN. There...does that help?
The same thing is said about the Boss 302 and the Boss 429 and the Plymouth Superbird and the Dodge Charger Daytona. See...I KNOW they had to make cars a certain way to make them eligible to race. BUT...the 302 was NOT originally made BY CHEVROLET. The original idea of a 302 engine was born back in the late 50s and early 60s. Bored and stroked 283 engines had a remarkable record back in their day. 301 was the actual cubic inch that was mainly used. Guys got tremendous RPM out of them (torque...huh?....what is that...some kind of French soup?) back when RPM ruled the strip and street.

RIDDLE OF THE CENTURY:
If all these small block/big cubic inch fans are so hot to get BIGGER small blocks...why aren't they just buying BIG BLOCK crate engines? You can have valves the size of beer cans and you can stop raving about torque numbers and start raving about horsepower again. And if you still are infatuated with French soup (torque), you will HAVE it in numbers that will make you shudder.
Worried about weight? Donovan and GM both make aluminum blocks and aluminum heads are made by so many companies I can't count them all.
RPM? Big blocks reach it with ease. The L-88 is easily able to exceed it's advertised maximum horsepower AND RPM. Only thing I can think of is the old "it costs too much". But if you wanna play with the BIG BOYs you gotta PAY like the big boys. It may mean waiting until you get enough money to afford an engine (I have to wait until February 2003). So what? Even if you buy a mild crate big block you will be ahead of the game compared to the Roadrunner V8s (I have now christended the 383 a Roadrunner V8).
The potential to make more power is unlimited.

Dep

 

John Force doesn't even use a Chevy engine in that stretched Mustang Mustang he drives. ALL funny cars and rails are using custom built hemis with blower and injectors. That has about as much to do with our discussion of small blocks as the man in the moon in a dune buggy

But he isn't running a 302 either is he! the point is he is running mountainous cubic inches OF BOREand STROKE !

So you are saying that your current Vette is a heavy pig that can't be properly powered by a small block. Not even one rodded to 500 horsepower.

DEP I'm saying that it is not the best route to go using an over-squared engine with low amounts of torque in a 3400 lb Vette in the applicatiojn most of us use on for. And a Corvette ain't light and if you want to call it Pig you may.

Besides, Pa always told me "You Can't Teach a Pig to Sing and it Annoys the PIG"

But YOU have to adapt to IT'S performance and QUIRKS.

Well at least we agree on one thing, it damn sure has its quirks. AND WHY adapt to something that is unnecessary?

I am seeing this in just about everyone's post. I GET IT!!!! I UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WERE MADE. I WAS ALIVE BACK THEN. There...does that help?

Then what part of it don't you understand? If you think you understand then BUILD IT !!! and then you will be happy knowing how much smarter you are than the rest of us.

Oh Yeah DEP, PA also said "It's hard to battle of wit with an unarmed man."

PROSOUTH :rolleyes:

 

My goal in my line of thinking, is a motor with 400 hp/300 lbs of torque under 4k rpm, and then closer to 500 up as high as i wanna rev it.

I Figure a nice flat torque/hp band with a 3.73 or 4.10 rear in it, would probably fly. The 302 just sounded like it could do the job. :cheers:

Now, have any of you guys thought about a small roots on a 302, instant torque, use the large valves, big ports... hit it!

I'm still in the throwing around ideas stages... and for what i was thinking... 350 max hp ealier a 302 wouldnt fly, not enough torque :cheers:

 

Flareside, the combo in my Recipe was for a 352 not a 302 (327 crank). The 302 could make that kind of power but it would be at a very high RPM around 7500 - 8000. I agree the 302 would be small for a street driven Corvette but great for a lighter car around 2500-2800.

One good friend of mine “Chuck” raced an Opel GT with one and a radical solid cam. Revved the p i s s out of it in the QT @ around 10K or so. Very cool to see that 2500 pound bumble bee rip a 147 mile pass down the track.

The long rod / big bore / short stroke combos that most of the racers big & small blocks I know compare to the 302 "Chevy" for rod ratios and the ability to make top end HP. I've blasted down the road in a few of them to know their power. In a battle of torque down low goes to forced induction or large cubes this I know but for street driving how much torque can a IRS rear suspension handle without breaking. I know they make upgrades and I'm considering several for my build including pulling the rear and building a custom 12 bolt or Dana.

The 352 combo in my recipe would make very good mid and upper RPM horsepower and would have good torque down low. More than enough for street tires… Also 352 would have an excellent rod ratio and would live longer under higher RPM’s. Smokey Yunick once said "Use the longest" darn "connecting rod you can fit in the engine". This increases piston dwell at TDC which gives a more complete burn and builds more pressure to the top of the piston during the power stroke.

In short the 352 would be a great combo for the Vette. A big cam and a TKO and hold on! :crazy:

 

So a light RX7 with a built Rotary would be a good match? (sorry to hijack)

 

Yeah, early 50's. He probably wouldn't like talking to you though ;) , he thinks big blocks are worthless for many many reasons... and I agree :D
Well, he did just flat out dump the clutch at around 10k RPM. He has his own little homemade (everything on that car is homemade) suspension for his 9 inch nodular plus 10/90 drag shocks in the front. He did all of this with early to mid-80's technology. AND, due to the class he raced in, the car WAS REQUIRED to be factory weight. That's right, he had to fill the gas tank completely up (and hide a few bags of shot here and there) to get the car as factory weight. Plus at the time my dad weighed about 300lbs. Big fella. We used a cow scale to weigh him once because the bathroom scale topped out at 264lbs :D He is only about 280lbs now though. He used iron heads also...

 

I enjoy and like small cube high revving engines. however, as 45acp stated, if a 302 wouldve made an excellent motor for the corvette, it WOULD BE THERE NOW. Duntov was known to love small high revving engines. his whole goal in the corvette car line was to make them run with the european sports cars. these euro cars were light and had small high revving engines. i would think many brilliant people smarter than you or I worked on the corvette, and they knew that weight needed torque from a bigger cube engine to keep the corvette on the top of the food chain. this exact topic bothered duntov considerably. 69' car life asked him if he had thought about a 2ooo lb 300 hp corvette... he responded he had and the closest he has been able to get to was a 3500 lb 435 hp corvette.

EDIT: reading the post below me, for anyone who has also noticed they way the L-88 was hidden heres why. It was because duntov wanted to keep the hot blooded big block out of richie-rich boys hands who wanted the car because they heard that it was the hot thing to have... he wanted the car to be bought only by people in "the know" who would be able to fully utilize the big blocks potential, and race the hell out of it. if youll also notice he did several other things to discourage street goers of buying of L-88 cars. for one, that is painfully obvious, it is the only car that i know of with a VERY high performance engine that didnt come with a chrome tag on the hood shouting out the engine model for all your buddies to see. even my 230 hp L-82 came with one. L-88 simply said 427 if i remember right. the L-71 that was rated at 435 hp did, however. it was duntovs goal to get the afforementioned richboy to overlook the L-88s "puny" 430 hp engine and go for the L-71's 435. also the L-71 came with creature comforts whereas the L-88 had radio delete, heater delete until the later model, no fan shroud, the wire grate air cleaner that you could literally fit a pencil through, the monstrous carb with NO choke and machined with NO plenum, and a bright yellow sticker warning to use only 95 research octane or higher in the 12.5:1 motor... among other things. sure, it was rated at 430 hp@5200 rpm. that was a joke, another duntov trick: underrate the car. try around 490. even more the 5200 wasnt the peak, like chevrolet stated. it was 6200, where it made around 530 i beleive. on top of that, the car came from the factory built to give its all until and only until the stock exhuast was axed in favor of open headers. theres another 60 horses. it was built this way from step one via internal mechanics and tuning. every single d*mn part of that engine was created with racers in mind; the carb the "air cleaner" the whole engine. the L-88 was never intended to see the street.



[Modified by Yellow79, 4:21 AM 12/17/2002]

 

Just makes ya wonder... Duntov hid the L88 so well in the options list you had to know what you were looking for. :cheers:

 

PROSOUTH: Continue with the insults (the battle/wits comment) and I end discussing things with you. If you are getting frustrated with losing the battle or my comments...just don't post.

QUOTE:
"But he isn't running a 302 either is he! the point is he is running mountainous cubic inches OF BOREand STROKE!"

Totally irrelevant. He is running WHAT IS COMPETITIVE IN THE CLASS HE RACES. If he could run a J-2 jet engine he would use that too.
If you want "mountainous cubic inches OF BOREand STROKE" then run a rat motor or a Keith Black hemi. Stop fiddling around with trying to make mouse motors into something they aren't.

"DEP I'm saying that it is not the best route to go using an over-squared engine with low amounts of torque in a 3400 lb Vette in the application most of us use on for. And a Corvette ain't light and if you want to call it Pig you may."

Not me. Been there done that and still getting hate mail from late 70's Vette owners over my comment about them having Caprice engines. I supposed if you are looking for a street cruiser and NOT a hot car, then the Roadrunner engines will be adequate. I'm not really into neon license plate frames and 500 amp boom boxes blaring loud enough to wake up the dead. For me performance means UNCOMPROMISING performance. Since the 302 seems to be too big a hassle for folks to own and work on, I guess you are better off with the low compression crate engines.

"Well at least we agree on one thing, it damn sure has its quirks. AND WHY adapt to something that is unnecessary?"

Simple answer: "Winning isn't everything...it's the ONLY thing". If you want a hot strip car and you want it to run smooth as silk on the street with air conditioning and gobs of luxury options on it...you will never be satisfied with it's performance.

I never said I was smarter than the rest of you. I simply have a different point of view than you have. You don't agree with it and I accept and understand that. If you foot the bill for a 302 Z-28 and a Cheetah kit car, I'd be more than happy to build it. I already have plans for my '72 and it's too late in the game to change them. It's obvious that we are firmly entrenched in our views...no need to get nasty about it.

Dep
Beep beep...vroooom :D


[Modified by Dep, 10:03 PM 12/15/2002]

 

"PROSOUTH: . . . If you are getting frustrated with losing the battle . . ."

Uh . . . he isn't losing.

:crazy:

Your assertions regarding the 302 have me scratching my head, Dep.


[Modified by 45ACP, 10:55 PM 12/15/2002]

 

QUOTE:
Uh . . . he isn't losing.

Point of view, grasshopper...point of view :nono:

"Your assertions regarding the 302 have me scratching my head, Dep."

As long as you don't scratch you privates, it's okay :D
Have you ever driven, ridden in, seen, or raced a built 302?
If the car is done right, it's a VERY memorable experience.
I think back then they used the term "giant killer" to describe them.

Dep



[Modified by Dep, 10:01 PM 12/15/2002]