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Regardless of what it is called it is in the same place, does the same function, has the same rods/jets combo.
More fuel efficient with some improvement in smog issues.
These cars still have all the major smog devices that plagued cars until better 02 sensors and fuel metering devices took them away.
As in my first post to answer the question of "power" from the CCC that was asked explained and answered what issues the CCC has with performance motors.
I specifically mentioned the electromagnetically controlled power valve.
OP goes straight to timing and ignores the importance of this fuel delivery system.
Well …. According to my first post about “ what modifications you can do with the CCC system “ was/is install some 175cc intake port TFS aluminum cylinder heads which will add way more power than anything you’ve suggested/posted on this thread . My first post will add 50 to 75 horsepower
if your ccc works good, it will be fine with better breathing top end. you could get into wanting to go slightly richer with the main jets but i don't know if that is doable with this carb. probably is. are you still running oxy sensor?
Last edited by derekderek; Jul 5, 2021 at 02:26 PM.
if your ccc works good, it will be fine with better breathing top end. you could get into wanting to go slightly richer with the main jets but i don't know if that is doable with this carb. probably is. are you still running oxy sensor?
other than raising the full rich stop to allow the needles out farther during full throttle the 02 sensor will try and maintain whatever value the computer tells it is right. chip hacking can adjust this.
Originally Posted by cv67
Couldnt he cam it if he watched the overlap?
basically yup.
everything done to a standard engine, heads, exhaust, timing can be added as long as the cam sends enough vac signal to keep the computer happy.
Some changes can be made to puter, but as I said repeatedly, the vacuum seems to be the main issue.
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Originally Posted by derekderek;1603676464[b
]the ccc is overridden at about 35 mph cruise.[/b] all it does is look at exhaust O2 level and TRY to optimize idle and part-throttle O2 levels. basically up to just a little faster than the speedo reads on the emissions-i guess it is a half-*** dyno. i guess the compromises a high horsepower cam forces on the engine at low throttle could make it really freak out. as soon as you hit the gas, it is a q-jet. i still feel the best place to install that system is the bottom of the river. if it works now, that 40 year old ecm is just waiting to pop.
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Originally Posted by calwldlife
This thread is pretty much how it goes when trying to discuss how to get more power using state mandated smog system.
There has been a smattering of information over the years but the good info is spread out in many threads.
The CCC carb will flow as much air and fuel as a reg QJet.
Basically the vacuum POWER VALVE has been changed from a SPRING controlled valve to an electro-mechanical valve.
This power-valve is controlled by computer.
Where this system fails is when VACUUM signal gets too LOW.
Thus, any big cam-shaft that lowers idle vacuum below a point, the computer gets lost and doesn't know how to control the power-valve or ignition timing.
There it is in a nutshell. The MAP sensor can't send a usable number to the computer when the engine vacuum is at or outside its operating specifics.
A lot of discussion about finding a different map sensor that will work with lower vacuum than stock never really panned out.
Discussion about hacking the chip fails because the map sensor just can't send "value" to the computer anyway.
The floor of what idle vacuum will work the MAP sensor I believe is around 15 inches?
Been a while since this was on my mind.
I see a lot of 81 owners lately, would be nice to have another real talk.
There are a handful of people here who has knowledge.
The MAP sensor is not supposed to send out "usable" numbers, it's supposed to send out actual, accurate voltages/numbers that reflect what the actual manifold pressure (vacuum) is.
There are multiple designs of these MAP sensors (1,2,3 Bar range), and they are designed to work in the full atmospheric range of the engine. They are not designed or specified dependent on idle speed manifold vacuum levels.
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Originally Posted by maxmachz
This is great information. Looking at the ECM itself, I do not see anywhere that vacuum is monitored or affected for the engine other than emissions controls: the amount of vac is not utilized for the distributor timing advance, nor does it affect the carburetor operation unless I am missing something?
I suspect you're missing something. The ECM needs to know what the manifold vacuum/pressure is so that it can correctly control the spark timing. Post up a better pinout drawing of your ECM.
As long as you are in the primary the Computer can control the fuel system , been a long time since I’ve driven a CCC Carb with a lab scope and scan tool hooked up but the system goes open Loop right at the secondary opening, these Carbs have a TPS that works off of the accelerator pump linkage internal inside the Carb
As long as the CCC can achieve 14.7 when in Closed Loop on the oxygen sensor with adjustability for rich and lean the system and the vacuum not far from the intended design it can work
I feel sorry for anyone wasting their time trying to make an antiquated engine control computer that was designed for 200 horsepower and was a total compromise system....work with any kind of large engine upgrades.
You will have more time, headache and money spent chasing the right "tune" to accommodate a set of heads, cam and headers......
There is zero benefit of keeping this system....and it was troublesome when it was new. I have worked on dozens of these and other GM cars with computer controlled distributors and timing.......the system is not worth keeping at all even on a stock engine unless the car is mint and runs like new.....with every part and component in very good condition......
Convert the car to non-ECM control and save your sanity.
Very good discussion! I have the shop manual and have read it thoroughly, as well as all of the mandatory tools for the CCC system and E4ME carb. I have removed the AIR pump, cat converter, and also years back replaced the ecm as I got a CEL which coded to a bad ecm. Swapped the PROM to the new ecm and it's been flawless for over 5 years. My car runs very well, but needs a hp boost; this fall it will get it, but I wanted to see what could be done without changing the carb or distributor, or the stock headers which I'm under the premise are actually not restrictive components to a point.
That point is what I am looking for, I'd like to take it right to the limits of the CCC system and leave it intact. Hoping that mid to high 300's for hp is not too far of a stretch. I've had this car for a long time, studied and toyed with the CCC and the E4ME quite a bit so it's not intimidating at all.
That is a great article on the CCC for sure, it's now in my archives, thanks for sharing that
Very good discussion! I have the shop manual and have read it thoroughly, as well as all of the mandatory tools for the CCC system and E4ME carb. I have removed the AIR pump, cat converter, and also years back replaced the ecm as I got a CEL which coded to a bad ecm. Swapped the PROM to the new ecm and it's been flawless for over 5 years. My car runs very well, but needs a hp boost; this fall it will get it, but I wanted to see what could be done without changing the carb or distributor, or the stock headers which I'm under the premise are actually not restrictive components to a point.
That point is what I am looking for, I'd like to take it right to the limits of the CCC system and leave it intact. Hoping that mid to high 300's for hp is not too far of a stretch. I've had this car for a long time, studied and toyed with the CCC and the E4ME quite a bit so it's not intimidating at all.
That is a great article on the CCC for sure, it's now in my archives, thanks for sharing that
The factory "headers" are pretty terrible.....they flow worse than a rams-horn cast manifold. This is a fact. You will never make even 300hp with those......and the first thing to do to these way back when was to run long tube headers and a true dual system......
The problem with the CCC is the window of its control......it will not provide enough mixture upstairs and down low without one suffering.....and a custom PROM would have to be burned for it anyway......timing is the same deal.....you can set the base timing but the factory curve is soft and again a custom chip would do the job but who is going to do it in 2021 and why?
I can see not messing with the system if it is in excellent shape but do not go and try to make it something it is not......
To make performance upgrades.....it is well known that they work together as a package......the exhaust and the CCC are two huge roadblocks and will not support what you want to do.....
the system looks at oxy level and tells sol to click faster or slower. in a perfect world you could rejet the carb for the extra air the engine breathes and if you had an O2 sensor in the header collector the ecm could understand, it would go on optimizing part throttle air fuel ratio.
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Originally Posted by maxmachz
Very good discussion! I have the shop manual and have read it thoroughly, as well as all of the mandatory tools for the CCC system and E4ME carb. I have removed the AIR pump, cat converter, and also years back replaced the ecm as I got a CEL which coded to a bad ecm. Swapped the PROM to the new ecm and it's been flawless for over 5 years. My car runs very well, but needs a hp boost; this fall it will get it, but I wanted to see what could be done without changing the carb or distributor, or the stock headers which I'm under the premise are actually not restrictive components to a point.
That point is what I am looking for, I'd like to take it right to the limits of the CCC system and leave it intact. Hoping that mid to high 300's for hp is not too far of a stretch. I've had this car for a long time, studied and toyed with the CCC and the E4ME quite a bit so it's not intimidating at all.
That is a great article on the CCC for sure, it's now in my archives, thanks for sharing that
I say go for it. I had an '81 (Monte Carlo) with the CCC system years ago, and it ran like a top for decades and tons of miles. I loved that car.
I have the GM Product service Training manual for the CCC system sitting on my shelf. If there's any specific information you're looking for, I'm willing to look through the manual.
Idle in gear won’t be 15 inches either, vacuum operation of the CCC is going to be in 18 to 4 inch range which would include idle in park or neutral providing ECM can still control the fuel system through the oxygen sensor
Give it a go! You seem capable of dealing with minor issues, as long as system capability is not breached. Not everyone has to "max out" their engine for optimum power performance. In fact, very few of us actually care about getting the MOST out of our engines. Heck, very few of us could handle getting the MOST out of a SBC engine. We are happy to get "enough" out of them.
