I'm new at this, so forgive the dumb questions in advance!

I've been looking to upgrade to shorty headers on my '77, but pretty much everything I'm running across says it won't fit a manual transmission.
Does anyone have suggestions on a set that won't break the bank or completely rust out in a couple of years? I'd like to stay below the $500 mark as I'm not looking to build a hotrod, just a fun driver.

Thanks in advance!

 

Buy a pair of long tube ceramic coated headers......short headers are not an upgrade.

Jebby

 

I should have anticipated the long header argument! The main reason we are replacing the rams is because we have a manifold leak, so thought we'd do a minor upgrade.

Reason for going with shorty is just so we don't have to worry about clearance. Like I said, not looking for "mad gains". Now, if you were to tell me that long would fix my issue with finding nothing that will fit a manual, then I'd consider it.

 

It is not an argument.....short headers are a complete waste. By the time you modify the exhaust to the flange and get them mounted......you will have as much work as a set of long tubes......and for the money the performance benefit is near zero on a mild small block......the only time you should use a shorty header is when you have no other choice.....most Model A, Duece and 33-34 Ford Street Rods run them because the frame rails are so tight together. If you have a large cam they are not desirable because the scavenging effect is not there....and that is a huge tuning mistake, big cams want scavenge.
To me...there is just no good reason to use them on a Vette....I would do a 2.5" 64-65' Rams Horn before I would do a shorty header......everything from 66' on had a 2" outlet.
And as far as them not fitting a manual trans......that is pure BS. Look at a shorty and tell me what would be in the way? The downpipes are the issue.....there is nothing up that far that has anything to do with the trans...and the Z-Bar for the clutch is nowhere near it.
It is your car.....just telling you my opinion of it all.....if you are going to spend the money, why not do it on something that actually has benefit?

Jebby

 

How can shorties not work with a manual? Stock exhaust works, long tubes work, so shorties not working makes no sense. As far a performance, Jebby knows his stuff.

 

Well, those are all great points and ones that I can't argue with, as you said. To clarify, the "not fitting" issue that I was seeing was from the JEGS website and their fitment chart. For some reason I wasn't able to find anything that DIDN'T say it "No" under the manual section. Don't ask me why, I'm borderline dumb when it comes to this.

I guess I don't have any choice but to go with long tubes or continue to endure the wrath of the community!

 

I for one would love to see your journey no matter what the route.. especially for those of us with manual, AC. standard starter, etc.. all the 'stuff'.. i am always on the comparison of ceramic reality measurements, and the fitment of 2.5 rams horns that fit stock heat shields etc.. for those of us still factory ..


good luck!

 

Interesting. Everything I am reading indicates that even short block hugger headers give some gains over the stock rams horn manifolds. Since I want to stick with side pipes, I was planning to go with short block huggers and custom 2.25" or 2.5" side pipes. Since the stock rams horns are 2", the side pipes are as well. Seems very restrictive to me. At some point I plan to upgrade the top end of the engine, but I thought starting with the exhaust would be a good start.

I was trying to decide between the Patriot Tight Tuck Headers and Flowmaster Scavenger Series (scavanger right there in the name even). It looks like the Patriots have better tube length and locations compared to the Flowmaster, but the Flowmasters are stainless, which I prefer.

Flowmaster:


Patriot:

 

Do what you want. Neither of those shorties pictured are anything but a pretty exhaust manifold. They could put 'Huge Johnson' in the name too. Any performance gain would be from moving from a 2" manifold to a 2.5" manifold, with the appropriate exhaust system.

 

It's been 15 years since I bolted shorties on a SBC...but I think I had to remove some metal from the rear of the motor mount on the driver-side to have clearance to bolt the header in place without rubbing on the motor mount...(no pics)

Below are pics of the passenger side header with about 1/4" clearance from motor mount and 1/2" from starter nose............(ignore the Ford frame adapter plate).......

 

Replace the manifolds and leave it stock. Headers alone mean exhaust work and unlike manifolds headers often loosen up over time. Not to mention the power gain will be in noise not HP you will feel in a driver set up.

 

Do you really think that the shorties in post #8 of the flowmaster and Patriots are not going to give some power over stock ramhorns?

Well, I can tell you from personal experience they will and do.

As much as LTH headers on a modified motor? No BUT, yes, better mid to high RPM power for the shorties. There is an incremental power advantage going from stock manifolds to shorty/block huggers and another incremental jump from Shorties to Long Tube headers. If you don't believe that statement, then don't bother using anything including LTH headers over stock ramhorns, since you don't understand physics!

 

The stock motors are duds , the biggest return on a stock motor with headers is ******* noise. You all here it, man that car sounds good. But sound and real world power are not one and the same. But for you techno types who want to be technical . Ya there is some hp added. But not enough to reduce 0 to 60 or a 1/4 mile run..

Leave it alone fix the ram horns or replace them if they are cracked. But doing it to gain hp on a stock motor is not reason enough to spend the money.

 

My current ram horns are not that great. They have the fresh air ports and one of them was leaking and needed to be plugged. One heat riser seems to work and the other was gutted and converted into a spacer. I would have considered a 2.5" ram horn from an older vette, but they have brackets that I do not need for my 74. That is why I am considering block hugger center dump shorty headers. I may keep my current setup until I do some engine work, which would include better heads, so I would think the shorty headers would be beneficial at that point. I agree, with stock heads, they do not help much.

 

I'm with the shorty is a bit better crowd because I've ported a set of ramhorns and of course LT are best.

Now that said I switched to ramhorns because of angle plugs on heads I was gonna use and modded my exhaust form C4 manifolds. When I get time I'll fab some real shortys with a angle that I like and call it good enough, I have my reasons for not wanting LT headers.

For those looking for CHEAP 2.5" ramhorns, I got mine from Advance Auto online free shipping with w/e discount they had at the time. Sorry I don't rem the part numbers but I paid like $78 for the pair about 5 years ago.

 

Oh and I cut the end brackets off the new ramhorns

 

In 1999 I built my Dad a 350 with Edelbrock heads, RPM intake (Air Gap wasn't released yet!) and a 292H Comp Magnum cam.....this went into a 2500 lb. 32' Three Window the following year.
The Roadster Shop chassis was tight around the front to run original hood sides so long tube headers were out of the question......so I searched and searched (No Internet....call a thousand numbers in Street Scene magazine) and found Street and Performance in Flint.......about 25 miles north of me. They had a shorty header with a 3" outlet...the only one I could find. I knew it would need as much flow as possible, so 3" it was....total compromise. My Dad wanted a cam with some chop......so the 292 was the order of the day......3000 stall and 3.50 gear in a light car...no problem. I bought the Street and Performance headers....and got the car running......the cam has a shitload of overlap.....and it sounded amazing for a little 350. We piped in 3" all the way out with Stainless Specialties straight through mufflers.......very sick sounding Street Rod.....turned a lot of heads at the Michigan Nationals.......
Flash forward to 2012......the car went to Texas with my parents and changed hands three times....that year, the fella who owned it called and asked me if I could look at it because it was a dog......this was a high 12 second car.....so something was wrong. Well, when he pulled up you could not hear it......I asked him WTF and he said it was too loud so he had the muffler shop put some quiet mufflers on it......sure enough, one ride around the block and it wouldn't pull a wet noodle out of a ****** *******...... I told him it was choked, he said ok and took it to five other people that said I was full of ****. Nevermind I built the damn thing.....and built race engines for a living......so he dismissed me and fortunately I never saw him again. (Small Victories!). The point is that if you do not have the scavenge that a long tube headers provides then you must have the freest flowing exhaust possible for a long overlap camshaft. The reason it worked in that application is because the exhaust was almost a free flow system......nothing to hold the charge back.....if it would have had LTH's on it...it would have made another 20-25 horsepower, easily......
Ok...now you have a 350/300 and want to put shorties on it......now your buddy talks you into a 406 to stick in there that makes 500 horsepower with a healthy camshaft in it......now how are those shorties looking? Should you have just got long tubes to begin with? They are just as much of a PITA or maybe even more than a LTH.
Will you see benefit on a 350/300 with shorties? No
Will you see a benefit on a 350/300 with LTH? Yes-in fact, most times it injects torque right off the bottom....
Will you see a benefit on a 406/500 with shorties over LTH? Yes-they do flow better, but the engine flows almost twice as much.
Will you see a benefit on 406/500 over shorties with LTH? Absolutely....it is what it wants.

It is more of a common sense question than one of will it work or is it better......so, for my customers, no one gets shorties.

Happy Monday and Vette on!

Jebby

 

Whew. Now I'm starting to get a good variety of opinions/answers.

So here's another way to get a bunch of opinions: How about mid-length? I've found a couple of options (Patriot, Summit) and I'm curious, does this strike a good compromise between the two camps? The only thing I'm again worried about, is fitment. For the Summit (SUM-G9103) there is a review where the guy said it did NOT fit his '78 Vette with the manual as it would not clear the clutch linkage.

I'm probably just going to call Patriot on the PTE-H8025-1 and see if there are issues with my setup. I'll post back in case anyone is curious.

 

If you want short tube headers, go with the very best quality, Sanderson Headers in Torrance, CA.
They do beautiful welds, use thicker tubing, thicker flanges, and ceramic coat their headers inside and out and have been in business for over 50 years.
You can see the dyno runs they have on their website comparing short tube to long tube headers.
Bottom end and mid range rpm’s show little to no hp or torque difference when compared to long tube headers.
Jebby is right, long tube headers produce more hp than short tube, but on a stock to mild street car, you may not even feel any difference between the two.

 

Even David Vizard said w/o a free flowing exhaust LT won't add that much and preferably there'd be no exhaust past the collector extension. So again, why I prefer shorty headers when I run full exhaust on some vehicles and in my opinion one problem is that, it's easier to oversize with a shorty. Well a poor cam selection for a street car and LT headers won't make up for it, that's often also the problem. Then again tuning is a big factor & personal use, I've lost track of all the times people told me this or that won't work and it has. Or the times I've seen someone buy one part that is too big and then get told "Oh your not blah blah blah compression, then blah blah blah race gas" and next thing you know he has a full blown race combo to fix one bad matched part. Now the guy don't enjoy buying expensive gas always or dealing with a finicky combo and sells it to buy a mild crate engine or LS swap LOL. Point is built what you want and don't worry bout others that you'll never meet in person. I know someone may accuse me of bringing up gas or compression and it has nothing to do with LT headers, that was just an example for a point.

Of course I'm not directing this at anyone personal, far as I'm concerned each person has to learn things for themselves and decide what level/type of car they want by experience in their car combo. Often I've seen people change multiple parts then finally one part and it really wakes up. Different people will say it's this part or that part, just depends what order they did it to make the combo work LOL